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karlbaba
Nov 30, 2008, 1:53 AM
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Lately I've been getting photo books and calendars printed in China. You can see my ad at http://www.rockclimbing.com/...mp.cgi?Detailed=1878
I thought I would pass the printer info on to the photogs here because photo books are a great gift or a way to share your collective climbing experiences with your partners and family.
The company i use, has automatic software you can plug images into but I find them gaudy. I recommend a 300 dpi layout in Photoshop in advance. YOu can see how my book is laid out in their cool view feature here if your computer will run free microsoft silverlight 2.0.
http://www.artscow.com/share/s0z80c598urt
It's tricky to get the best deal from them. There are all kinds of coupons and discount codes available. If anybody needs codes for 30 page photobooks printed and shipped for $12 email me for a code.
Here the link to the company
http://www.artscow.com/?Ref=434794
Beware of shipping costs. They give you all kinds of free codes but charge a lot for shipping from china.
I know there's all kinds of ways I can benefit from you reading this post but take it for how it serves you and connect with me or not. Other sites like Blurb.com also do the photobooks and could probably ship quicker but I've found them more expensive. If you hurry, you can get your own photos printed on a calendar or a book for your friends and family before christmas or at least new years.
Peace
karl baba
karlbaba@yahoo.com
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chossmonkey
Nov 30, 2008, 1:12 PM
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karlbaba wrote: It's tricky to get the best deal from them...... .........Beware of shipping costs. They give you all kinds of free codes but charge a lot for shipping from china........
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karlbaba
Nov 30, 2008, 2:39 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: karlbaba wrote: It's tricky to get the best deal from them...... .........Beware of shipping costs. They give you all kinds of free codes but charge a lot for shipping from china........ Sounds like good reasons to use someone more local and support the domestic economy.
There are plenty of reasons to support the local economy when possible. Getting a lower price isn't one of them as I would be very happy to get them from the US if I could find similar prices and service here. I think one of the reasons they charge so much for shipping is just that they really make a lot of their money on the shipping charges. For instance, it's $7.99 to ship one book, and no discount is given for bulk shipping if you order 10 books. There's no way it costs them that to ship (although their packaging is good quality on each book)
Any suggestions on where I can get 30 page 8x8 image-wrapped hardcover photobooks with photo quality pages for under $15 shipped in the US would be greatly appreciated.
Peace
Karl
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blondgecko
Moderator
Nov 30, 2008, 7:54 PM
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I remember seriously considering getting some big prints done when I visited China due to the really cheap prices, but what eventually stopped me was worries about the ink quality. Will the prints actually last the distance, or will they bleach out over time? Somehow I doubt that they're using archival-quality inks.
On a similar note, I've got a photo on my fridge at the moment that was printed at one of the 15c-a-photo kiosks right here in Australia, which has steadily turned almost completely red over the course of a year or two. 
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karlbaba
Nov 30, 2008, 8:36 PM
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blondgecko wrote: I remember seriously considering getting some big prints done when I visited China due to the really cheap prices, but what eventually stopped me was worries about the ink quality. Will the prints actually last the distance, or will they bleach out over time? Somehow I doubt that they're using archival-quality inks. On a similar note, I've got a photo on my fridge at the moment that was printed at one of the 15c-a-photo kiosks right here in Australia, which has steadily turned almost completely red over the course of a year or two.
I've got prints done by the same printer. They use Fuji Crystal archive paper and so ink isn't an issue, it's a photographic process that should last as long as anything available.
How they print the books is an unknown and don't know when you were in china last. I was there for the olympics and in Beijing, things seemed more modern in some ways than in any american city. Those guys have Trillions on the bank.
peace
karl
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j_ung
Nov 30, 2008, 8:42 PM
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Politics and economics aside, those are some stunning photos, Karl.
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macblaze
Nov 30, 2008, 9:29 PM
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karlbaba wrote: blondgecko wrote: I remember seriously considering getting some big prints done when I visited China due to the really cheap prices, but what eventually stopped me was worries about the ink quality. Will the prints actually last the distance, or will they bleach out over time? Somehow I doubt that they're using archival-quality inks. On a similar note, I've got a photo on my fridge at the moment that was printed at one of the 15c-a-photo kiosks right here in Australia, which has steadily turned almost completely red over the course of a year or two. I've got prints done by the same printer. They use Fuji Crystal archive paper and so ink isn't an issue, it's a photographic process that should last as long as anything available. How they print the books is an unknown and don't know when you were in china last. I was there for the olympics and in Beijing, things seemed more modern in some ways than in any american city. Those guys have Trillions on the bank. peace karl
No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days.
And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one.
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kriso9tails
Nov 30, 2008, 9:56 PM
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macblaze wrote: No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one.
Fuji Crystal Archive is a traditional silver halide/ dye cloud paper. It actually is a photographic process.
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macblaze
Nov 30, 2008, 11:29 PM
Post #9 of 21
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kriso9tails wrote: macblaze wrote: No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one. Fuji Crystal Archive is a traditional silver halide/ dye cloud paper. It actually is a photographic process.
Your telling me that for $15, some place in China is printing photographic images in the traditional photgraphic method... uh... no.
If it is a digital image that is being sent then it is being output with a digital printer. The only other option is they are actually printing cmyk inks on a short run press and you are looking at $60-70/book minumum.
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kriso9tails
Dec 1, 2008, 12:46 AM
Post #10 of 21
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macblaze wrote: kriso9tails wrote: macblaze wrote: No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one. Fuji Crystal Archive is a traditional silver halide/ dye cloud paper. It actually is a photographic process. Your telling me that for $15, some place in China is printing photographic images in the traditional photgraphic method... uh... no. If it is a digital image that is being sent then it is being output with a digital printer. The only other option is they are actually printing cmyk inks on a short run press and you are looking at $60-70/book minumum.
I'm telling you what Fuji Crystal Archive is, which has been around or awhile. People have been printing digital files on papers like Crystal Archive and Kodak Endura, both of with are photographic emulsion papers, since the start of this decade. He didn't actually say how much he paid for the prints, but if it was $15 for a print then he probably wouldn't be saving anything in the long run. I'm sure there would be a closer lab that would run comparable rates.
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guangzhou
Dec 1, 2008, 1:06 AM
Post #11 of 21
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karlbaba wrote: chossmonkey wrote: karlbaba wrote: It's tricky to get the best deal from them...... .........Beware of shipping costs. They give you all kinds of free codes but charge a lot for shipping from china........ Sounds like good reasons to use someone more local and support the domestic economy. There are plenty of reasons to support the local economy when possible. Getting a lower price isn't one of them as I would be very happy to get them from the US if I could find similar prices and service here. I think one of the reasons they charge so much for shipping is just that they really make a lot of their money on the shipping charges. For instance, it's $7.99 to ship one book, and no discount is given for bulk shipping if you order 10 books. There's no way it costs them that to ship (although their packaging is good quality on each book) Any suggestions on where I can get 30 page 8x8 image-wrapped hardcover photobooks with photo quality pages for under $15 shipped in the US would be greatly appreciated. Peace Karl
Thanks for the great recourse. I am currently working with a Indonesian company in East Java that produces very nice books too. If they can produce a book that matches your quality and is better priced than what you have, I'll let you know.
I love living in a global economy versus a localized substinanse community. My good can be produced in Asia, marketed in Europe, ordered in Australia, all while I live in Southern California. A wonderful world.
On the other note, I lived in China for a couple of years and I have to agree, they are a wonderful country, especially in business. They can produce inexpensive books because the cost of labor is fairly low. I guess that's why so many publishers print there.
I'll let you know about my Indonesian printer soon.
Eman
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karlbaba
Dec 1, 2008, 4:04 AM
Post #12 of 21
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macblaze wrote: kriso9tails wrote: macblaze wrote: No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one. Fuji Crystal Archive is a traditional silver halide/ dye cloud paper. It actually is a photographic process. Your telling me that for $15, some place in China is printing photographic images in the traditional photgraphic method... uh... no. If it is a digital image that is being sent then it is being output with a digital printer. The only other option is they are actually printing cmyk inks on a short run press and you are looking at $60-70/book minumum.
Dude, I can get a 24x36 print, done on Fuji Crystal Archive paper using a for sure photographic process used by the same printing machines (lightjet) that top photographers farm out their best images to print for Ansel Adams gallery for under $30-35 printed right here in the united states!
Ya gotta do your research regarding what you claim. If you don't know, don't claim.
I got Lasix Eye surgery in India, using machines built in the west by Bausch and Lomb (or whatever company is tops in this) by a doctor trained in the West and it cost me $600 including drugs. Costs are lower overseas in many instances.
Now, the books are printed double sided so I don't know what paper it's on. I do know it's acid-free 186 gsm and looks really good. Fact is, tons of the stuff we see in the US now is made in China, and like Japan 30 years ago, it's moving from just being cheap, to including quality as well.
Peace
Karl
peace
Karl
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macblaze
Dec 1, 2008, 4:32 AM
Post #13 of 21
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karlbaba wrote: macblaze wrote: kriso9tails wrote: macblaze wrote: No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one. Fuji Crystal Archive is a traditional silver halide/ dye cloud paper. It actually is a photographic process. Your telling me that for $15, some place in China is printing photographic images in the traditional photgraphic method... uh... no. If it is a digital image that is being sent then it is being output with a digital printer. The only other option is they are actually printing cmyk inks on a short run press and you are looking at $60-70/book minumum. Dude, I can get a 24x36 print, done on Fuji Crystal Archive paper using a for sure photographic process used by the same printing machines (lightjet) that top photographers farm out their best images to print for Ansel Adams gallery for under $30-35 printed right here in the united states! Ya gotta do your research regarding what you claim. If you don't know, don't claim. I got Lasix Eye surgery in India, using machines built in the west by Bausch and Lomb (or whatever company is tops in this) by a doctor trained in the West and it cost me $600 including drugs. Costs are lower overseas in many instances. Now, the books are printed double sided so I don't know what paper it's on. I do know it's acid-free 186 gsm and looks really good. Fact is, tons of the stuff we see in the US now is made in China, and like Japan 30 years ago, it's moving from just being cheap, to including quality as well. Peace Karl peace Karl
Not really arguing except maybe definitions. Just how are we defining photographic process these days? I never really cottoned to digital printing being called a photographic process; it's a new world though isn't it.
And $30 for a print on photo quality paper is different than multiple pages printed two sided in a book: different processes entirely.
And back to my original point, it is indeed the inks and dyes that will dictate how well the image will last.
And finally I am totally a fan of the new processes, and the project photographers are using them for. I just have a pet peeve about the slow demise of the traditional photographic arts. 
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pico23
Dec 1, 2008, 5:41 AM
Post #14 of 21
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macblaze wrote: karlbaba wrote: blondgecko wrote: I remember seriously considering getting some big prints done when I visited China due to the really cheap prices, but what eventually stopped me was worries about the ink quality. Will the prints actually last the distance, or will they bleach out over time? Somehow I doubt that they're using archival-quality inks. On a similar note, I've got a photo on my fridge at the moment that was printed at one of the 15c-a-photo kiosks right here in Australia, which has steadily turned almost completely red over the course of a year or two. I've got prints done by the same printer. They use Fuji Crystal archive paper and so ink isn't an issue, it's a photographic process that should last as long as anything available. How they print the books is an unknown and don't know when you were in china last. I was there for the olympics and in Beijing, things seemed more modern in some ways than in any american city. Those guys have Trillions on the bank. peace karl No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one.
Huh,
Um, prints done on Fuji Crystal archive paper have NO INK.
The use the same silver process that has been used for a century, plus they add all sorts of goodies like lasers and what not.
But there is abosolutely no ink in the process except the ribbon that prints the date on the back. That's it!
Having worked on those machines as well as AGFA machines, I can assure you I never changed "ink". I did clear a ton of silver waste out of the machine though (those things piss more than I do), and poured the silver waste into a silver reclaimer. So this would possibly disprove your theory that there is "Ink" involved!
Now, the thermal sub printers like the Kodak Kiosk also don't truly use ink. it's a dry process, and the used "ink" looks like saran wrap. Those (edit) CAN fade, and are not silver based. But the Kodak prints I have still look good after a few years. I mostly printed them just to test the color fastness. You clearly used a cheaper process!
The frontiers are a photographic process, and the core print is still largely old school, the lasers and modern tech in the machine just yields more DR and better colors but the prints last just as long or longer than stuff from 20 years ago!!!
(This post was edited by pico23 on Dec 1, 2008, 5:43 AM)
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kriso9tails
Dec 1, 2008, 6:26 AM
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pico23 wrote: Huh, Um, prints done on Fuji Crystal archive paper have NO INK. The use the same silver process that has been used for a century, plus they add all sorts of goodies like lasers and what not. But there is abosolutely no ink in the process except the ribbon that prints the date on the back. That's it!
Well, there's no silver in the final print either; just dye. I'm sure there are some similarities in image stability loss in chromogenic prints and inkjet prints that used dye-based inks. Then again, there are sure to be a number of differences as well.
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pico23
Dec 1, 2008, 7:36 AM
Post #16 of 21
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kriso9tails wrote: pico23 wrote: Huh, Um, prints done on Fuji Crystal archive paper have NO INK. The use the same silver process that has been used for a century, plus they add all sorts of goodies like lasers and what not. But there is abosolutely no ink in the process except the ribbon that prints the date on the back. That's it! Well, there's no silver in the final print either; just dye. I'm sure there are some similarities in image stability loss in chromogenic prints and inkjet prints that used dye-based inks. Then again, there are sure to be a number of differences as well.
True...but I did say silver based printing!!
Of course the point it's not an inkjet, and one would assume that if they are using crystal archive the process is pretty decent. If the prints look bad when you receive them, something was wrong. Those printers don't require much TLC (aka. calibration). They pretty much just run!!
The other thing is books tend to last a while because they aren't exposed to light and air. You can be a little less picky with books. But again, something printed on a Frontier that looks good day 1 should look good in 10 years, I know, I have a lot of 10 year old Frontier prints!!
I would say a lot of my recent book purchases are printed in China, and actually I believe quite a few of my Rowell books are also printed in Asia. Cost could be a factor of fewer environmental standards, that alone is a huge cost reduction China has clearly made by the fact it's horrendously polluted!
That said, I can understand anyones misgivings about cheap Chinese junk. Lets face it, the quality standards there are not top notch. Look how many recalls they have had!! Just wanted to clarify the basic principal of the print process!
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karlbaba
Dec 1, 2008, 8:39 AM
Post #17 of 21
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To bring some clarity to the issue. I'm sure they use a different process for the books than the prints.
They claim the machines that makes the books costs a million dollars. but I think much of that may be because the books are hardcover with machine stitched bindings.
They run a special on 12x18 photographic prints, 10 for $25 shipped. When I tried it out, the prints looked just as good as the ones i was getting from a printer that caters to wedding photographers in the US. What you see on Fuji Archive Paper is going to look that way for a long time.
Of course, book pages don't see much light and the image wrap covers have some kind of laminate over them
peace
Karl
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karlbaba
Dec 1, 2008, 8:45 AM
Post #18 of 21
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Don't use their automatic software if you know your own photoshop, as their designs are gaudy
You can go to their "help" section and download photoshop templates.
https://www.artscow.com/...ommendImageSize.aspx
Peace
Karl
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macblaze
Dec 1, 2008, 3:25 PM
Post #19 of 21
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pico23 wrote: macblaze wrote: karlbaba wrote: blondgecko wrote: I remember seriously considering getting some big prints done when I visited China due to the really cheap prices, but what eventually stopped me was worries about the ink quality. Will the prints actually last the distance, or will they bleach out over time? Somehow I doubt that they're using archival-quality inks. On a similar note, I've got a photo on my fridge at the moment that was printed at one of the 15c-a-photo kiosks right here in Australia, which has steadily turned almost completely red over the course of a year or two. I've got prints done by the same printer. They use Fuji Crystal archive paper and so ink isn't an issue, it's a photographic process that should last as long as anything available. How they print the books is an unknown and don't know when you were in china last. I was there for the olympics and in Beijing, things seemed more modern in some ways than in any american city. Those guys have Trillions on the bank. peace karl No, ink is an issue. The paper is just the substrate. The paper might last forever but depending on the printer (the actual machine) you use you will find huge differences in colorfastness and UV resistance. Not that you won't see the same issues with traditional CMYK ink on paper (he says looking at his faded books) but it can be quite rapid with some brands dye sub and inkjet printers which is what 90% of the photo quality printing is these days. And no, its not a photographic process, it just looks like one. Huh, Um, prints done on Fuji Crystal archive paper have NO INK. The use the same silver process that has been used for a century, plus they add all sorts of goodies like lasers and what not. But there is abosolutely no ink in the process except the ribbon that prints the date on the back. That's it! Having worked on those machines as well as AGFA machines, I can assure you I never changed "ink". I did clear a ton of silver waste out of the machine though (those things piss more than I do), and poured the silver waste into a silver reclaimer. So this would possibly disprove your theory that there is "Ink" involved! Now, the thermal sub printers like the Kodak Kiosk also don't truly use ink. it's a dry process, and the used "ink" looks like saran wrap. Those (edit) CAN fade, and are not silver based. But the Kodak prints I have still look good after a few years. I mostly printed them just to test the color fastness. You clearly used a cheaper process! The frontiers are a photographic process, and the core print is still largely old school, the lasers and modern tech in the machine just yields more DR and better colors but the prints last just as long or longer than stuff from 20 years ago!!!
OK to review and hopefully rescue myself from sounding like an idiot.
1. There are machines out there that will take a digital image and make a print using a silver-based process... who knew? Obviously not me. Although I did realize there was archival quality printing (as in photographic prints) available.
2. The aforementioned prints are not what they are using to print books, especially at the prices we can get them done at. No the guts are less of an issue, but I have plenty of covers that will prove colorfastness can be an issue.
3. I don't think quality overseas is an issue. They (traditional and digital printers) are making more and more money off the North American market for quality work and don't want too piss us off.
4. I just got a bunch of 8 x 10s done for $2 each and they were gorgeous and I have no idea what kind of printer was used and I am really curious.
5. I'm still learning, but it is starting from the other end i.e. book manufacturing etc. rather than the one off, gallery quality print.
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macblaze
Dec 1, 2008, 3:26 PM
Post #20 of 21
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karlbaba wrote: Don't use their automatic software if you know your own photoshop, as their designs are gaudy You can go to their "help" section and download photoshop templates. https://www.artscow.com/...ommendImageSize.aspx Peace Karl
Any way to submit pdfs? How does the print look as a raster graphic?
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karlbaba
Dec 1, 2008, 6:13 PM
Post #21 of 21
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macblaze wrote: karlbaba wrote: Don't use their automatic software if you know your own photoshop, as their designs are gaudy You can go to their "help" section and download photoshop templates. https://www.artscow.com/...ommendImageSize.aspx Peace Karl Any way to submit pdfs? How does the print look as a raster graphic?
No PDF. Print looks as good as 300 dpi looks. of course if you rasterize it below that, it will only be as good as what you submit
peace
Karl
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