|
danielb
Nov 13, 2002, 3:34 PM
Post #1 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2002
Posts: 232
|
Whats better for the learner BD Alpine Etriers or normal Etriers?
BD Alpine Etriers
BD Etriers
Cheers,
Daniel
#edited to add links and fix spelling
[ This Message was edited by: danielb on 2002-11-13 09:00 ]
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Nov 13, 2002, 8:43 PM
Post #2 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
Try the Yates or the Russian aiders if u can find them
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Nov 13, 2002, 8:55 PM
Post #3 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
I second the Yates recommendation.
|
|
|
|
|
galf
Nov 14, 2002, 12:20 AM
Post #4 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 230
|
I second the RUSSIAN recommendation.
Galf
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Nov 14, 2002, 12:33 AM
Post #5 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
First of all, if you can find the Russian Aiders, you should definitely buy them, as they are ETS! Russian Aiders render traditional aiders obsolete.
Both Black Diamond aiders and Yates aiders come in various permutations and combinations of five- and six-step and lightweight alpine or standard. The links in this paragraph take you directly to the manufacturer's pages, and are a bit more useful than the links Daniel gave us above because those go only to suppliers.
In addition, Yates makes the Wall Ladders, which is a parallel-sided design that you see below.
Let me first say that some of this will come down to personal preference. Since you're not going into the mountains where every ounce can count, I would be more likely to suggest you buy the standard weight rather than the super lightweight, simply because the step on which you will be standing will be wider and hence more comfortable. The foot steps on the Yates Wall Ladder are 2" wide, but on the Speed Wall Ladder only 1" wide. This additional comfort will be appreciated after you've been standing in the things for twelve hours.
So unless you're really concerned about weight, which you shouldn't be in most big wall or aid climbing situations, I would get the heavier and hence more comfortable jobbies.
Although I've never personally used the Yates Wall Ladders, I have climbed with a partner who has, and they are pretty nifty! The third step is a different colour so you know where you're aiming. The main benefit is that they are much easier to get your foot into and out of, and for this reason I am quite sure they are better than the traditional design.
In terms of length, this I can say with certainty:
You want to buy two five-step and two six-step, putting one of each on the end of each adjustable daisy. The reason you need only one six-step on each pair is so that you can get low during bounce testing.
[Don't buy Yates adjustable daisies as the buckle will slip over time, instead buy the Metolius adjustable daisies. Using adjustable daisies means you no longer have to climb big walls, you can merely pull yourself up using a 2:1 mechanical advantage.]
My only caveat with the Yates Wall Ladders is that they may tend to be a bit big and klunky. Please understand this is just a guess - it may not be the case at all. But I am wondering what it would be like to have four of them, two on each daisy? I doubt they'd be too heavy, and I'm assuming it's probably not that big of a deal.
I can't give you a definite answer without having all of them in my hot little hands, but I would lean towards two pair of Yates Wall Ladders.
The best bet would be to go to a climbing shop that has them all, and see which you prefer.
Has anybody here used the Yates Wall Ladders or Speed Ladders?
I am Dr. Piton,
and I am not particularly helpful here since I don't have personal experience with the Yates aiders.
OH! And to answer Richard's question directly below, he is right - you can't release the Metolius adjustable daisy under tension. You have to get weight off of it by "udging up" on your feet, and then twist your wrist just so to separate the D-rings.
But I believe this to be the lesser of two evils since my experience with steel buckles is that they do slip over time.
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-11-13 19:17 ]
|
|
|
|
|
spike
Nov 14, 2002, 12:47 AM
Post #6 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 127
|
Hi Pete,
As you know I use the YATES Adjustable daisies. What I like about the YATES Adjustable daisies is that you can release the daisies under pressure. I don't think you can release the Metolius adjustable daisies under pressure. Is that true or false --- I have never used Metolius.
Richard / SPIKE
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Nov 14, 2002, 12:55 AM
Post #7 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
I have a pair of Yates Wall Ladders. Jeff Wright (theclimer) loaned me his pair of prototype Fish russian aiders. If he'll let me, I'm going to buy them. They allow me to aid about twice as fast as even the Wall Ladders.
Once upon a time I had a pair of regular aiders. They suck. Get the Russian Aiders and if you absolutely must have something RIGHT NOW then I guess you should get the Yates Wall Ladders. But the Russians are better.
I've been beating on my Yates adjustable daisies for a while and they haven't slipped, but I haven't done an El Cap -sized bigwall, so maybe I just haven't beaten them up enough. They sure are better than regular daisies, though.
nb. Jeff has a pair of the Metolius daisies and it didn't seem like they were easy to release under pressure. I could be wrong.
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-11-13 16:57 ]
|
|
|
|
|
hans
Nov 14, 2002, 1:16 AM
Post #8 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2002
Posts: 34
|
When I first learned to aid, my doctor had Ladders. I think they were home-made, but they were the same thing as the Yates.
They were way cool, but at the time they were impossible to attain unless you knew a guy with a bar-tack machine.
One major advantage of the Ladders is that they have much less of a tendency to twist than traditional aiders do.
Because of this, they help to eliminate cl*sterf*ck and they're also easier to get your foot into.
I'm debating whether the extra comfort of the 2" ladders will make up for the extra bulk, however, especially with stiff-shanked boots.
-Hans
|
|
|
|
|
danielb
Nov 14, 2002, 8:48 AM
Post #9 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2002
Posts: 232
|
Thanks for the advice guys but my main problem is that I am limited to the shop above or the selections in the following too shops as I live in Europe:
Barrabes.com Spain
NeedleSports.com UK
I don't know of any other UK or european shops that sell aiders.
Daniel
#edited for spelling
[ This Message was edited by: danielb on 2002-11-14 00:49 ]
|
|
|
|
|
justsendingits
Nov 14, 2002, 12:44 PM
Post #10 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 1070
|
I wish we had some organized system for this forum.This will be like the fourth time I have posted on the etriers and daisys.
In a nutshell
1.--Russian aiders if u can get them..
2.--Yates if ya can't.
3.--Yates adjustable daisy(with screamer),as u can release them under load.Watch the way the webbing feeds thru the buckle,as if it goes off to one side,and the corner of the buckle wears the webbing VERY FAST.....
Yates Adj,daisy last only a couple el.cap walls.
Met a guy last year that topok a 30 ftr. onto his partner,cause he was using a worn out daisy with no screamer,he was on a fixed pc.--- PO. wall i believe. Anyway,said fixed pc.(time bomb)blew,he had his daisy clipped to the last pc.--it loaded hard,blew,went all the way to the belay,and past....
I like,Yates Adj. daisy with screamer,replace old ones as needed...
R
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Nov 14, 2002, 4:13 PM
Post #11 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
go with the Cassin
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Nov 14, 2002, 4:48 PM
Post #12 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
I dropped an email to Trango asking about the Russian Aiders: Here is the response from Jeff Sadler of Trango.
"Hi Chad,
The russian aiders are really cool, but you probably can't get them anymore.
We weren't selling enough to make more, and we're sold out. We did give the
design to Pika, so they may have something coming out soon. Most of what we
sold went direct to people, so I don't know any shops to point you towards
either.
Sincerely,
Jeff"
I also dropped Pika an email asking about availablility. I'll let ya know how they respond
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Nov 14, 2002, 5:09 PM
Post #13 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
Fish! http://fishproducts.com/
Mine are from Fish, they're prototypes. Well, not "mine", but rather "Jeffs pair that are living in my basement right now". (hey Jeff, the weather looks shitty this weekend, want to go aid something overhung?!?)
Anyways, Russ Walling was threatening to come out with a New-and-Improved design this winter or spring. I'd buy stuff from fish over Pika stuff any day. Joshie (owner of Pika) is basically a trust-fundie who doesn't have to give a crap about his customers; Russ on the other hand will bend over backwards to keep your business. Shop accordingly...
The Cassin aiders look like a good choice for danielb, though I'm amazed you can't mail-order from eg. Fish or Yates Gear.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Nov 14, 2002, 5:44 PM
Post #14 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
Thanks Tim,
The Russian Aiders do show on the Newest of New and states the following:
"FISH Russian Aiders
Based on the proven Trango design, but with improvements. Trango has stopped making these, and they asked us if we wanted to continue production.... Yes we do!!!! Prototypes are out and about right now (Sept. '02) and we will probably begin real production for the Spring season of '03. (maybe even some for Xmas this year!)
"
|
|
|
|
|
elcapbuzz
Nov 14, 2002, 6:42 PM
Post #15 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2001
Posts: 460
|
I use the Yates speed ladders and love them.
What stands out for me are:
1)You don't have to waste energy trying to get your feet into the step.
2)Don't have to look down at your feet to find the step.
3)The handle helps save strength in your fingers.
4)You can use the handle to step higher than any other aider I've ever used.
5)They're the most durable/bomber aider on the market.
6)John Yates "IS" the man.
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Nov 14, 2002, 7:25 PM
Post #16 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
Quote:
4)You can use the handle to step higher than any other aider I've ever used.
More so than the Russians? I need to become bad ass like Ammon and hide my shame if so...
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Nov 14, 2002, 10:14 PM
Post #17 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
I use a combination of the Metolious and the Yates adjustable daiseys. I got sick and tired of the Metolious being a little difficult to adjust under load so I added a third daisey Yates adjustable. So now I climb with three adjustables.
Most of the time I`m using the Metolious adjustables as they are fast and simple but I find that for hooking the Yates offers superior fine up and down control. The Yates is the best for work positioning with hooks when taking pics.
I`ve also got some of those Wall Ladders although they are a copy of that style and not actually made by Yates. The wall ladders are definitely a superior design but of course they are no way as good as the Russian Aiders.
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Nov 19, 2002, 6:22 PM
Post #18 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
I noticed nobody mentioned the Metolious Easy Aiders. (adjustable) Has anyone used these? If so, did you like them? Do they work well? They seem like they would have alot of advantages, since you'd only need 2 of them (one for each foot). Comments? Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Nov 19, 2002, 6:44 PM
Post #19 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
While I'll probably pick up a pair of Russian Aiders from Fish, on the "traditional etriers" front I have to give the Nth recommendation for ladder-style aiders rather than the original christmas tree design.
For what it's worth, I like the Misty Mountain ladder style aiders a zillion times better than my Yates aiders. They weigh probably 1/4 as much (seriously), are much less bulky, don't catch on as much stuff, and are less obnoxiously in the way of everything. There are a few negatives - no stiff spreader bar (could be added if you wanted) and the steps are 1" or so webbing instead of 2", but I find that if I wear reasonably stiff shoes for aiding (I like the Sportiva Hypers, nice and stiff and free climb half way decently) that it doesn't make a bit o' difference.
But then again I'm one of the weirdo's who prefers to aid with 2 aiders instead of 4 (way to much sh*t in the way already, who needs yet another aider in the way).
josh
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Nov 19, 2002, 11:59 PM
Post #20 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
Per Pete's request, here's a pic of the Misty aiders called the "Easy Step"... note the closer step spacing at the top - rocking and lightweight and (so far) bomber.
Also, the hand loop is actually big enough to grab onto. Many aiders the hand loop is more like a "2 finger pocket" - by the time you get a daisy and a pair of aiders and some biners all pinched into a groove or dihedral and weighted and then reach in there to try to find a hero loop, it's nice for them to be decent sized. With my pair of Yates I've found myself going for the spreader bar or just grabbing one of the biners or something in there instead...
josh
[ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2002-11-19 16:02 ]
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Nov 20, 2002, 12:29 AM
Post #21 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
I`ve used the Metolious easy aiders as well as the Pika adjustable aiders. When used in combination with the easy daiseys I find that there are simply too many tails to pull for all the adjusting that needs to go on as you move up.
This is why I searched out and sourced the Russian aiders which are by far The Better Way.
I like the adjustable aiders for jugging though as I can infinitely adjust where I want my feet in relation to the Jumar.
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Dec 29, 2002, 3:56 PM
Post #22 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
You can click here to see what Ammon uses.
That should tell you something. The pic was too big to put directly in the post, hence the link.
|
|
|
|
|
copperhead
Dec 29, 2002, 5:49 PM
Post #23 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 668
|
Aren’t those big plastic handles kind of bulky and a nuisance in tight flares?
Grab loops: I have an older pair of Yates aiders (part of my collection of many) that has the grab loop threaded between bar-tacks, just below the main clip-in point. The Misty aider shown above seems to also have this problem. If a full-strength loop is to be used as a grab-loop (and a daisy clip-in point as well), why not incorporate it into the aider so that the entire system is full-strength? My A5 aiders have the grab-loop threaded through the main clip-in point, which is full-strength (because it is looped through the aider biner).
I have considered using a third daisy (adjustable) but have not seen one that is long enough. Any suggestions?
Hey Pete, got any pics of the foot device on those Russian aiders and the actual hook that latches onto the metal rings? Do they ever pop out while aggressively bounce testing?
|
|
|
|
|
smithclimber
Dec 29, 2002, 6:09 PM
Post #24 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 15, 2002
Posts: 338
|
As if we really needed a first hand experience added here.......
I own 4 Yates Wall Ladders and use 2 or all 4 of them accordingly. They are by far the best aiders I've found (note: I have yet to test drive the Russian aiders, but I completely understand WHY they are "ETS" as Pete says. For those who don't know, they have a leverage advantage when you are high on your piece.)
Yes, using 4 (or even only 2) Wall Ladders ends up being very bulky (and a bit heavier, but as mentioned before, shouldn't be a concern on most big walls).
The 2" steps on the Wall Ladders are more comfortable than the 1" steps that are on every other aider (including the Yates Speed Ladders). I appreciate the added comfort (even at the expense of the bulkyness). I wear 5.10 Venturas when on a wall and find that after completing a wall my big toes are numb (topic for a new thread!). They stay numb for WEEKS and sometimes MONTHS after completing the wall before the sensation returns (part of my right toe is STILL numb from a wall in September!)
Therefore, there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going to be standing around in something thinner than those 2" steps. I should mention, I believe the numbness to be more a problem of footwear than an aider problem. As previously mentioned, if you use good stiff soled boots (I wouldn't say that mine are) then the width of the steps will be less noticeable.
You will QUICKLY come to love the fact that the Yates Wall Ladders (and Speed Ladders) have the "spreader bar" above the top step. This bar is similar to having a JUG to grab onto whenever you like! It is much easier to hang onto than the "grab loop". Having said that, this doesn't mean you will not use your grab loop at all. It means you have a choice! When the wall is vertical or overhanging, you will be using (and thanking your lucky stars) the spreader bar. However, when the angle of the wall is of a slabby nature or you've just clipped a piece over a bulge, you will probably opt for using the grab loop because the spreader bar will be lying flat against the surface of the rock while being weighted. If you were to try grabbing the spreader bar in this situation you would get MAJOR finger pinching and knuckle THRASHING. Hint: I do not have bloody knuckles when I get to the top of a wall!
Tradguy, I've used the Metolius Easy Aiders (adjustable) on one occasion and quickly saw many limitations. Although they are great for jugging, they are less than practical for actual leading. Try to imagine what it's like trying to use adjustable aiders on a horizontal roof, or better yet, a hooking traverse on even a vertical wall. You can't move your feet up and down the aiders as easily (certainly not as quickly) as with normal aiders.
When hooking sideways I use the following strategy:
1. Place the hook and test from VERY low in the aider.
2. Climb up higher on the hook in order to reach sideways to the next placement. This increases your reach MUCH more than staying low and trying to make the next placement.
3. After making the next placement, climb back down the current aider until you are VERY low once again. You gotta get LOW again to test that hook you just placed out to the side. Also, you NEED to be low when you shift your weight from the first hook to the second one. Being low lessens the angle the aiders have to move, in relationship to the hook, and decreases the chance that you will "rock" or "tip" either hook off it's placement.
4. Now that you've tested and weighted that second hook placement, and are still low in your aiders, you now need to climb high again (in order to maximize your reach for yet the next placement).
5. Repeat.
As you can see, you do alot of going up and back down your aiders to make the placements, test the pieces, and shift your weight carefully. Do you know just how big a PAIN IN THE ASS all this would be when you only have ONE step and have to incessantly adjust it?!
Also, you would never have the advantage of being able to connect your aiders together to make them longer. This is immensely useful at the belays, both during hauling situations and for climbing up and down to retrieve things from your haulbag and/or portaledge depending on how you have things set up.
So......the adjustable aiders get a thumbs down, the Wall Ladders get a huge thumbs up, and the jury (that's MY jury) is still out on the Russian Aiders.
Who's gonna loan me their Russian Aiders so I can put them through their paces?
Geez, I wrote a friggin' novel here.
I'm getting as bad as you Pete!!!
Cheers, Wes
|
|
|
|
|
doki
Dec 29, 2002, 6:33 PM
Post #25 of 27
(11412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 28, 2002
Posts: 123
|
I use a yate's big wall ladder there awesome but never try those speed ladder seems like sounds good of ammon says but i dont like any adjustable daisy,its good for the leader not good for the second who clean the pitch specialy the over hang traverse,Give theme a try maybe you'll like it we never know.Its all about the FIFI HOOK for me. HAPPY HOLIDAY...........!!!!!!
DOKI
[ This Message was edited by: doki on 2002-12-29 10:39 ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
