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surfergirl
Dec 26, 2008, 6:16 PM
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i've climbed just just a few times (outdoors) so far. i've gone with the same friend every time, he's taught me everything i know, so as far as i'm concerned he is the word of god.
too bad i can't always have him holding my hand, and need to look for other climbing partners. for example, i have a friend who's climbed in the gym before (only in the gym) and would want to go with me. she's a good friend, but how do i know she knows what she is doing?? same question about looking for climbing partners online...as a beginner, how can i REALLY be sure my partners know what they are doing?
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Gmburns2000
Dec 26, 2008, 6:32 PM
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well, ultimately, the best way to know is to educate yourself as much as you can. Reading books, taking classes with certified instructors, etc can really help to advance your knowledge base. At the very least, it will help you to understand better if you're partner is talking BS or not.
However, I would think that most people have not learned this way. I personally was taught by a more experienced friend, and then used that experience to learn even more as I climbed with other folks. My education is on going, and I treat new partners with a fair amount of hesitancy depending on what I know about them in advance. For instance, I took a guy who has only topropped twice outside in his life for a weekend in the Gunks earlier this fall. I did that because I know that this guy is smart, asks a lot of good questions, and wasn't going to do something just because I said it was OK. In short, he was careful to pay attention. On the other hand, there are folks at the gym who seem to be experienced who I would rarely consider climbing outside with without really testing them (as they should with me, too).
If you're going to learn from friends, then I would suggest climbing with them in a relatively safe environment (i.e. - gym or toprope crag well within your limits). I would ask them why they are doing what they are doing (i.e. - why did you set up the toprope like this? why are you only using one biner when two could be used? etc) and try to gauge both their responses and their answers.
In the end, you're responsible for yourself. In general, I recommend putting yourself in situations that you trust and can manage. This will make it easier to trust your partners. Over time, you'll start to learn who can be trusted doing what.
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potreroed
Dec 26, 2008, 6:36 PM
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You can't--but you can watch for some signs like is their gear all shiny and new and did they put their harness on correctly etc.
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Sin
Dec 26, 2008, 6:39 PM
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Have them get a blood test before getting down an dirty, or you can see what they know in a controlled environment, like a gym. I've known a couple climbers who let novices belay them, and the results weren't pretty. No lead belay experience, and climber went splat. Broken back, leg, and a couple of ribs.
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theclimbergirl
Dec 26, 2008, 6:40 PM
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I've been thinking about my own climbing partner trust dynamics a lot lately, so will speak from my experience...
I start by watching someone climb and belay, before I ever tie in with them. If I like what I see (of their skill, attitude AND safety) then I start slow, on toprope. A climbing partnership graduates to lead status, multipitch routes, and/or travel together only after I've really gotten to know and trust someone by climbing with them for awhile. I also trust my instincts and listen to them.
I'm trying to get better about assessing a partner's skills and building trust more quickly, since I'm finding myself without a climbing partner on occasion and contemplating solo trips which will mean meeting partners on the road and/or climbing with new friends. But, there is still a very short list of people I've been climbing with the longest, and have the most experience with, that I'd like to have on belay when I try my hardest lead routes and/or set off up a long route. If one of them isn't along, I plan my day accordingly so that I'm comfortable with the objectives and have as much fun with as little stress as possible...
Plus, you learn a lot from climbing with multiple partners, so don't limit yourself to just one! Even as a beginner, you should be able to assess someone's basic skills and decide whether or not they're competent; if you don't yet have that experience, get thee some training at your local gym or from a local guide, as soon as possible!
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caughtinside
Dec 26, 2008, 6:55 PM
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If you're new, there isn't much way to tell if someone knows what they're doing or if they're all talk. You really don't know what you're doing yourself. It sounds like you'd like someone more experienced to show you the ropes but think about it... why should they trust YOU?
Just look for a few basics like belay skills. Maybe just toprope with them first. Assess when you talk with them if they are actually interested in your safety or are just macho hotheads. that sort of stuff.
Ultimately though it's all a roll of the dice. But it gets better. As your skills develop, you will get an eye for this sort of thing, and you'll know pretty quickly upon meeting climbers whether you'd want to rope up with them or not.
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surfergirl
Dec 26, 2008, 7:02 PM
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caughtinside wrote: If you're new, there isn't much way to tell if someone knows what they're doing or if they're all talk. You really don't know what you're doing yourself. It sounds like you'd like someone more experienced to show you the ropes but think about it... why should they trust YOU? quote] they SHOULDN'T trust me! my friend has been teaching me to belay by having me belay him on routes that are easy for him...i doubt he trusts me to save his life yet, but he knows that he is teaching me the right way to do it.
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hbusch
Dec 26, 2008, 7:05 PM
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Unfortunately you can't see it from his/her face or words if you really can trust one unless you tried it out. Finding a partner you can really trust, who does the job well, is not easy.
So I'd recommend careful testing in easier ascends.
Remember: A successful ascent always needs two: The leader and the belayer.
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Maddhatter
Dec 26, 2008, 7:12 PM
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You don't know. If you have to ask maybe some more time in the gym might be best. What matters is what will happen if things go bad. will they smack the wall face first and not drop you? Is it just some dude that wants to score or just watch your ass all day? People suck! Yet climbers are better then most from what I have seen.
Trust is something you have to build up with a partner
how well they climb has very little to do with how good of a partner they will be. Just be smart and don't get in a rush to climb with just anyone. Ask them how they do things and see if they seem to have a clue. Then start slow on easy stuff and see if they are a good fit.
THEN step it up to harder stuff after some REAL trust is in place.
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surfergirl
Dec 26, 2008, 7:24 PM
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so it sounds like the gym is a lot safer than outside? i've never been inside a gym before so i don't know what it looks like. wouldn't it also suck if you got dropped on a gym floor?
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Gmburns2000
Dec 26, 2008, 7:33 PM
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surfergirl wrote: so it sounds like the gym is a lot safer than outside? i've never been inside a gym before so i don't know what it looks like. wouldn't it also suck if you got dropped on a gym floor?
Well, the dangers of a gym are supposed to be minimized by a few things such as: everyone gets a belay test, the floor is usually padded, the gear is usually inspected for mass use, etc. This doesn't mean that gyms take all the risk away or even that they do a good job all of the time, but it does mean that some risks can be reasonably assumed as being lower than outside.
I prefer going to a gym when meeting new partners for the above reasons. I also happen to trust my gym a fair amount (though not completely - I have issues with some of the hangers and draws, but that's another battle), so that makes it easier for me.
In short, a gym doesn't take away all the risk, but a padded floor is softer than real rock.
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johnwesely
Dec 26, 2008, 7:38 PM
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usually I climb with someone in the gym first to make sure that they are not grossly negligent. Then we go outside and I let my comfort level with the partner dictate the type of climbing that we do. Someone has to take a noob out, or they will always be a noob.
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surfergirl
Dec 26, 2008, 7:39 PM
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oh i see. i will try the gym then. i have serious doubts because i hate doing ANYTHING indoors, but i will definitely try it at least.
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rockie
Dec 26, 2008, 10:39 PM
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Gym first, as they have to pass a belay and figure of 8 test to be able to climb there anyway, in the first instance.
Then get them to climb first, and maybe have someone else with you more experienced who you know already as a support. Or one of the staff from the gym to oversee you both?
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uhoh
Dec 26, 2008, 11:27 PM
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surfergirl wrote: i've climbed just just a few times (outdoors) so far. i've gone with the same friend every time, he's taught me everything i know, so as far as i'm concerned he is the word of god. too bad i can't always have him holding my hand, and need to look for other climbing partners. for example, i have a friend who's climbed in the gym before (only in the gym) and would want to go with me. she's a good friend, but how do i know she knows what she is doing?? same question about looking for climbing partners online...as a beginner, how can i REALLY be sure my partners know what they are doing?
Every new partner I meet is taken on a case-by-case basis. Generally speaking, I'll meet new partners in a gym where I can observe some of their behaviors in a "safer" environment.
I mostly look for belay habits. Is the person paying attention? Are they prone to goofing around? Does my belayer look better than me and therefore a threat to my already insecure sense of masculinity?
The answer to your question ultimately boils down to the experiences you have with that partner.
There are some people that are pretty good friends of mine who I just will not allow to belay me because I don't feel like they're paying attention to their climbers and therefore not belaying safely. I've found myself constantly being short roped or having an amazing amount of slack in the system on TR. As a result of their inattentiveness to belaying, I've found myself less inclined to climb with them or allow them to belay me.
I once watched a couple attempt to sport climb in our gym. The female was a belay instructor (ironically) and the male was a guy trying to show off for her though he knew nothing of lead climbing. It became apparent very quickly that she wasn't very familiar with the art either (this may have been the result of a genetic condition as she once told us a story about her father trying to place bolts at Devil's Lake - another mark of either ignorance or stupidity).
The male climbed up most of the wall when he started to feel the burn. He trusted his belayer (the girl) and took the fall. He nearly decked - very nearly. Prior to this, the same couple had been climbing and the boy had z-clipped a pair of bolts - the girl told him to climb past it.
Through observations of others or through my own personal experiences, I gain an idea of who generally does or does not climb safely enough to give a safe belay.
My most recent climbing partner I also met in a gym. He's a very chatty guy whereas I'm more the silent type so we didn't hit it off right away. After talking to him a bit he asked me to give him a sport belay. I asked him if he knew how to clip and he assured me he did, so I grabbed a rope thinking he'd just clip a few, fail, and come down. He didn't. In fact, while I'd never seen him around before, he turned out to be a rather proficient and knowledgeable climber, at least when it came to sport climbing. We swapped belays a few times and he eventually went on to be one of the guys I climb with frequently.
After climbing with him a couple weeks I started sporting an OH route that had a pretty low rating but I'm not used to OH so it was a good challenge for me. I didn't finish it that night but I took a few good falls that my partner caught.
It takes effort to trust new people and I developed that trust more rapidly than usual with that particular partner due in large part to a number of experiences which reinforced my belief that he was a competent climber.
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sungam
Dec 27, 2008, 12:08 AM
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Just another note to add what people here say.
Take no ones word as the word of god. Never hesitate to question anyone's way of doing things, even if they are much more experienced then you are.
When I taught some buddies to lead trad when I was 16/17, I had a minute fraction of the knowledge I have today, and can honestly say I shouldn't have been teaching them. They thought I knew my shit.
I guess what I'm saying is - keep an open mind, don't follow his word to the letter, and don't be afraid to do something completely different, as long as it's safe.
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surfergirl
Dec 27, 2008, 12:14 AM
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good point
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curt
Dec 27, 2008, 12:27 AM
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potreroed wrote: You can't--
correct.
Maddhatter wrote: You don't know...
...and correct--especially if you are relatively new to climbing yourself, and have no good basis to go by.
Curt
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Goo
Dec 28, 2008, 7:33 PM
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surfergirl wrote: i've climbed just just a few times (outdoors) so far. i've gone with the same friend every time, he's taught me everything i know, so as far as i'm concerned he is the word of god. too bad i can't always have him holding my hand, and need to look for other climbing partners. for example, i have a friend who's climbed in the gym before (only in the gym) and would want to go with me. she's a good friend, but how do i know she knows what she is doing?? same question about looking for climbing partners online...as a beginner, how can i REALLY be sure my partners know what they are doing?
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justroberto
Dec 29, 2008, 2:18 AM
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You can trust me; wanna go to Yosemite?
You can tell by the responses that there is no way to tell if someone is safe if you don't know for yourself what safe is. Get your one regular partner to do two things for you:
1) Show you why what he is teaching you is safe. You should know how to do things like put your harness on, tie into the rope, toprope belay, lead belay, etc, but also why. Why is the atc or similar device so good at creating friction to arrest a fall? Why is it typically better to belay from close to the wall or directly under the first bolt? When is it not safe to do so and why? Why would you concentrate on redundancy, equalization, or little extension in your anchor?
Beginners tend to focus on the how and not the why. They are typically referred to derogatively as n00bs. Don't be a n00b.
2) Introduce you to the people he trusts and climbs with on a regular basis. If he is honest with you, you should be able to find a couple of people who are at least as safe as he is. Buy them beer/gas/lap dances (depending on the situation) in exchange for keeping you safe.
As a rule, don't trust anyone you haven't watched climb and belay. If you educate yourself in advance, you should be able to tell pretty quickly from body language if he or she has a reasonable idea about what's oging on
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sungam
Dec 29, 2008, 2:24 AM
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Curt, you changed your sig line back.
Intriguing.
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boulderinemt
Dec 29, 2008, 4:08 AM
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I have had some of my scariest and best moments climbing with new people. I became the whipping boy when I first started ice climbing. Whenever somebody came into town, I was always the belay bitch, and would go out with them. Ice climbing partners have always given me my biggest scare. I went out once with a guy from Texas, who assured me he could climb WI5. We went to a climb in the Valley, and proceeded to the crux pitch. We decided we would stop here, and top rope. He led it, then started shouting down to me what he should do for an anchor. I told him to build a screw anchor, and I would break it down. Well, he came down, as I lowered him, and I climbed this WI4+ pillar. I got to the top, and saw three screws, with slings and carabiners. Good! Then, I see the rope is run directly throught the webbing, sawing it in half. Not good! I chewed him a new hind quarter hole, and rebuilt the anchor, came down on a v-thread, and set all the rappels for the rest of the 3 pitches of rappelling. Long story short, he, on the way back to town told me how he had climbed in Yosemite, used to be a bum, and did so much hard stuff. He was full of BS, and I recognized this, too late. You live and you learn. My scariest experience, came last year when I took some guys out to one of my favorites during Ice Festival. I watched a guy tell me to get bent about how he should have crampons on, sail of a 10m pitch of ice, from slipping. I watched him sail over, and disappear. The only thing that saved him was the deep snow at the bottom. Read: broken back avoided kinda lucky. But, some of my best experiences have come from randomly meeting people. I met a guy from here, Dwight Bishop, many years ago, and he pretty much taught me how to climb. Unfortunately, I lost him in an accident. I am very wary of taking people out anymore, until I have spent time with them, and KNOW I can trust them, not just in the climbing aspect, but if things go to heck, can they get me, or themselves out of there? It is hard as a beginner, but give it time, get things figured out, and you will be able to tell if they are blowing smoke in your face. Wanna go climb some ice? :D
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marebear
Dec 29, 2008, 6:49 PM
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I agree with the others. There is no way to know if you can trust someone, and in the end, you have to be vigilant and take care of yourself. I know some very experienced belayers that have dropped people due to freak accidents and have climbed with some beginners that became competent very quickly. In general, if I climb with someone new, I climb with them in the gym on top rope first, and when/if I move outside, I climb with at least one other trusted person besides the new partner and instruct the trusted person to watch the newbie while he/she belays and to hold the brake end of the rope as a back up.
If someone is a ditsy moron in general, he or she will probably be a ditsy moron when climbing and belaying. Climb with good people and you will find good partners.
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ladyscarlett
Dec 29, 2008, 10:44 PM
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wow, it's nice to hear that I am not the only one a little cautious about who to climb with.
Some people I see at the gym have asked to join me and my buddies on outdoor trips. This really made me think of what I would need to see/experience from someone who wanted to climb with me.
I am new to this whole thing, but I don't see anything wrong with taking time for trust to be established. First step for me, if I can't get along with someone as a person, I'm not going to enjoy climbing with him/her, period. I've also found that bouldering can give me some insight into their general attitude towards climbing with someone. If a person is being an inattentive spotter, then I'm not too confident in their abilities and attitude when there's a rope involved. We're all here to have fun, yes, but choosing to have a snack while a potential climbing partner is at the crux move of a bouldering problem shows a lack of attentiveness and a blase attitude that I would rather avoid.
I'm still hashing out the "audition process" so to speak, but I suppose everyone has to start somewhere. Is it just me, or does it feel something like a platonic "dating" process?
The suggestion to take a gym trip isn't a bad idea - I'll have to remember that one.
ls
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