Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters.

The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters.

There you go with the ignorance thing again.

Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.

Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.

I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.

I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.

Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?

I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.

When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.

Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.

I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....

As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads