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happiegrrrl
Jan 6, 2009, 4:31 PM
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First off - Thank you. Of all the routes I've climbed, nearly all have been ones put up by someone before me. Climbing onsite does have it's appeal, of course, but even if it's fresh for me, the fact that I know the route "goes" makes it quite a different game that the one played by first ascentionists.
I made this thread because I am interested in reading about people's experiences, both as FA's and those who climb their routes(thus, everyone here who climbs....).
Particularly interested in hearing what people have personally invested - research, time in cleaning routes, costs incurred with bolting, etc.
Also - specifically - to those who have bolted routes:
- How much would you estimate spend on hardware, whether it's this week, last year, or over the course of your lifetime so far.
- Is there any funds donated that you are able to tap into? Has anyone provided assistance with that? I know the Safe Climbing organization does accept donations and I think they help defer costs, but that is not for new route, but for replacing old and suspect ones.
While I was out in JTree last month it occurred to me just much people who put up these routes invest. Without their efforts, I certainly wouldn't be climbing.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 6, 2009, 5:11 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: First off - Thank you... ...just much people who put up these routes invest. Without their efforts, I certainly wouldn't be climbing.
seconded.
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kyote321
Jan 6, 2009, 5:33 PM
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a route is going to run roughly $2.5-4 per bolt and hanger depending on whether your can wrangle a wholesale deal. price of steal is going up. thanks for the props, most climbers dont realize the amount of cleaning and work that goes into route devlopment.
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jcrew
Jan 6, 2009, 5:48 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Particularly interested in hearing what people have personally invested - ........ Also - specifically - to those who have bolted routes: - How much would you estimate spend on hardware, whether it's this week, last year, or over the course of your lifetime so far.
i've invested a lot of time and money.... but it's for my benefit. if anyone else has a good time climbing routes i've equiped, then bonus!
i just spent all my christmas money ($175) on 50 bolts and hangers from fixeusa.com. czech the site, they've got some good deals going....
no "bolt fund" around here.....my few friends and i basicially are the climbing community in this backwater. i have had some trail work donations.
although the money is significant, it pales in c omparision to the time involved.....countless hours!
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onceahardman
Jan 6, 2009, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: price of steal is going up.
Sorry. Nothing personal. Just a funny typo, rife with ironing. (pun intended).
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the_climber
Jan 6, 2009, 6:04 PM
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The short of it for an average climber who hates crowded crags.
Research... on some lines months if not more time spent just studying the line and finding out of anyone has been there before (the latter is sometimes obvious, but sometimes the hardest part). I'll toss in the time getting the ballz to actually attempt the route in research. For example I have a couple lines I've been eyeing up for over a year... still working on that ballz thing for those lines.
Then there is the flip side, the look up and say "damn, that needs to be done".
Time cleaning routes. Sometimes none, other times a couple dozen days over a summer establishing a trail, and cleaning the route as we figure it out pitch by pitch. I'll note that some routes seem to be plauged with bad weather on the days you are on them, and blessed with perfect weather when you're sitting at work... this can easily add a week's worth of work on a multi pitch climb.
If you consider that I live and climb in the Great Canadian Chossies rock quality is a major factor with regart to time, some routes require more attention. I've had single pitch routes that have gone up in a matter of 15 mins; 2 to 3 pitch routes that have gone up in a matter of hours; I also had a route this past summer take 14+ days (maybe up to 20 days) of work, cleaning, backing off by headlamp, bolting anchors and protection bolts to reduce major runouts, cleaning more death blocks, aiding to clean sections that would have been suicide otherwise,.... that one followed the "longer, steeper, and harder than it looks" every pitch.
Each route is different.
As for cost. Sometimes it's just the gas to get there. Other times it's a lot more. I would estimate that between myelf and my partner I do most of my new routing with we've easily spent a couple hundred dollars this past rock season alone. That cost would be for bolts, hangers, rap station materials (ring bolts, chain anchors, mallions, cable or webbing, slings...), fixed pins, mangled gear, drill bits...
It's not cheap all the time that's for sure, but it gets me away from the crouds and back in touch with the spirit of "climbing". <-- don't really know how else to decribe the feeling of stepping out on uncertain ground.
There are funds availible to offset costs, but I've never used them.
Most of the routes I put up are either trad, or mixed trad/bolts. I have established a few sport routes, but those are not the ones I feel I accomplished something on. Over the past 2 years the guys I climb with (the BVX) and I have put up 30+ new routes ranging from single 5.4 to 5 pitch 5.10d to easy/moderate alpine lines that are still in progress. The lines we pick are the ones that are just there and look fun, not really much more to it than that. Many of the routes we've put up are established with the novice in mind, routes that will alow them to develop their trad skills before moving onto harder routes. The bonus is it's a great way to get away from both the crowds and the constraints of thumbing through the guide book.
But this is just from the view point of an average climber, slipping under the radar while climbing those lines that just looke dlike fun and had to be done.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 6, 2009, 6:06 PM)
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yevquest
Jan 6, 2009, 6:10 PM
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I usually spend somewhere between $100 and $1000 a year on hardware. The amount of free time that I have and my enthusiasm for whatever new area(s) determines how much new routing I do in a given year.
Cost wise, I figure it's about 3 bucks a hole for a SS bolt and a hanger plus maybe $.75 in drill bit pro rated. Anchors are pricey too, whether using chain, double rings (I hate single rings, damn rope twisters!), or some other configuration.
I also rebolt a few routes a year, replacing old, rusty bolts or ghetto anchors. I've received some hardware from the local advocacy group for rebolting but primarily it comes from my pocket.
As far as experiences go, it's just something that I enjoy. Seeing what the rock gives you, trying to connect features and do a good job. I've rapped many lines that either wouldn't go naturally or just didn't look fun and I left them alone. Getting skunked in that sense is all part of the process.
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dingus
Jan 6, 2009, 6:15 PM
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I dabble.
I pay for my own hardware. I've equipped a few sport routes but I don't go out of my way to endlessly set up new ones.
I like the exploration of new routing. I'm a pathfinder. I'm not patting myself on the back - its true.
So for me new routing involves a cycle of endless hiking, exploration, approaching, new trail work, fostering interest with my partners, planning, dreaming, and finally - executing.
Here is a sort of sicko's version of what I'm talking about:
http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=752399#msg752399
Another FA example:
(this is p7 of a 10 pitch 1000' vertical crack climb up an unknown formation, somewhere.....)
There is so much work involved in one of these projects I can't even begin to explain it to beginners. Just getting the gear to the base of this climb is a serious undertaking.
I originally spied the formation from an airplane seat. The next summer I did my initial explorations. WOW! I did some research - no one had ever admitted to climbing this thing. I skied in the next spring for a really close look - holy fuck its a BIG WALL!
The following year we went in with a team of 5 and through various attempts we sent fairly direct and logical line up the Directissma.
So yeah, you have to be wired for this sort of work. I only have the bug marginally. Some of my partners are sick sick people indeed. For a few of them, new routing is virtually all the climbing they do.
Cheers
DMT
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localshredder
Jan 6, 2009, 6:38 PM
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I've spent around twenty thousand dollars in the last three years on a new sport area. That includes gas, hardware, bits, and a drill. Worth every penny because I have an area that only I and a handful of friends know about.
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sonso45
Jan 6, 2009, 6:47 PM
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I like climbing new routes. I like ground up crack FAs, more excitement, lower cost. I bolt sport routes because I want my vision of the climb realized. The cost is substantial when looking at a long bolted route. Not unusual to spend $50-$75 per single long pitch of bolts. Some friends do help but no organization does.
I like the system in other countries, Mexico has organizations that will provide material thru clubs for worthy projects. In Orpierre, France, the town paid for route development.
Mostly, I have been climbing long enough that I feel that I should contribute something back to the sport that's kept me satisfied. Besides, I enjoy it.
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atg200
Jan 6, 2009, 7:25 PM
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My new routes are out in the Utah desert, mostly on unclimbed towers. I doubt they'll get many, if any, repeats since they are really out in the boonies. I do them mostly because I like getting to the tops of towers, and even better if no one has been there before.
I don't do very many new routes a year, so my hardware investment is probably only around $50 a year or so.
This thing is still needing a second ascent if anyone is feeling adventurous:
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bozher
Jan 6, 2009, 8:23 PM
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sonso45 wrote: I like climbing new routes. I like ground up crack FAs, more excitement, lower cost. I bolt sport routes because I want my vision of the climb realized. The cost is substantial when looking at a long bolted route. Not unusual to spend $50-$75 per single long pitch of bolts. Some friends do help but no organization does. I like the system in other countries, Mexico has organizations that will provide material thru clubs for worthy projects. In Orpierre, France, the town paid for route development. Mostly, I have been climbing long enough that I feel that I should contribute something back to the sport that's kept me satisfied. Besides, I enjoy it.
If we wait for the government to fund our sport we will be a lost cause. That which the government gives, it can take away!
This should be a wake up call for all of us climbers that do not belong to the access fund or contribute to local organizations. Most of us do not have the time to do all of the work involved in putting up a quality route. Fortunately some in the community do. It is especially important for those of us that don't have the time, that we contribute to those who do. Thanks for all of your hard work and sharing the sport.
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potreroed
Jan 6, 2009, 9:14 PM
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I have spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars on hardware, drills, drill bits, batteries, battery chargers, ropes, static ropes, crow bars, brushes and other cleaning tools. I have also received many generous donations of money and hardware. My main reward is getting to climb my own routes and seeing my routes being climbed every day by average climbers.
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jcrew
Jan 7, 2009, 5:03 PM
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jcrew wrote: i have had some trail work donations.
i have to acknowledge the support of partners who go out and sit around while i'm bolting, fussing with bolts, etc... i had this realization yesterday as i spent about 90 minutes equiping a sport route while on TR belay. end result: another 2 -star, well-protected 50 ft. 5.10. for the kids play on.
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jcrew
Jan 7, 2009, 5:08 PM
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dingus wrote: There is so much work involved in one of these projects I can't even begin to explain it to beginners. Just getting the gear to the base of this climb is a serious undertaking. Cheers DMT
Dingus' post reminds me of an area in central B.C. with tons of granite walls from 3 to 10 pitches. we always wanted to go in there and czech it out, but you have to take a boat across Slocan Lake, and then whack through lowland B.C. bush to get to the rocks. I wonder if ANYBODY has been there in the last ten years. i
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the_climber
Jan 7, 2009, 5:10 PM
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jcrew wrote: jcrew wrote: i have had some trail work donations. with bolts, etc... i had this realization yesterday as i spent about 90 minutes equiping a sport route while on TR belay. end result: another 2 -star, well-protected 50 ft. 5.10. for the kids play on.
This is a VERY good point. Without the partners who stretch their patience to the brink of exhaustion many routes would never get finished. There are those 4+ hour leads that beer just doesn't pay for, but a good partner brushes off as a good day in the mountians.
Finding a good partner for new routing can often times be harder/more time consuming than establishing a route. That can also be applied to returnign to routes to add in bolted stations, protection bolts, cleaning, ttrail building ...
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k.l.k
Jan 7, 2009, 5:21 PM
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the_climber wrote: jcrew wrote: jcrew wrote: i have had some trail work donations. with bolts, etc... i had this realization yesterday as i spent about 90 minutes equiping a sport route while on TR belay. end result: another 2 -star, well-protected 50 ft. 5.10. for the kids play on. This is a VERY good point. Without the partners who stretch their patience to the brink of exhaustion many routes would never get finished. There are those 4+ hour leads that beer just doesn't pay for, but a good partner brushes off as a good day in the mountians. Finding a good partner for new routing can often times be harder/more time consuming than establishing a route. That can also be applied to returnign to routes to add in bolted stations, protection bolts, cleaning, ttrail building ...
Bingo. Consistent free time and a serious work ethic.
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k.l.k
Jan 7, 2009, 5:22 PM
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dingus wrote: There is so much work involved in one of these projects I can't even begin to explain it to beginners. Just getting the gear to the base of this climb is a serious undertaking.
Dude, I wouldn't post this bit online. It is open to misinterpretation by our public servants.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 7, 2009, 6:19 PM
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k.l.k wrote: the_climber wrote: jcrew wrote: jcrew wrote: i have had some trail work donations. with bolts, etc... i had this realization yesterday as i spent about 90 minutes equiping a sport route while on TR belay. end result: another 2 -star, well-protected 50 ft. 5.10. for the kids play on. This is a VERY good point. Without the partners who stretch their patience to the brink of exhaustion many routes would never get finished. There are those 4+ hour leads that beer just doesn't pay for, but a good partner brushes off as a good day in the mountians. Finding a good partner for new routing can often times be harder/more time consuming than establishing a route. That can also be applied to returnign to routes to add in bolted stations, protection bolts, cleaning, ttrail building ... Bingo. Consistent free time and a serious work ethic.
I would love to partner with people doing new stuff again. My second season, I did a few and - yes, patience is a virtue. But, I have it, and holding the rope(and all the rest) all day long on a route going up WAS fun.
Maybe I'm just one of the sick ones...
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happiegrrrl
Jan 7, 2009, 6:24 PM
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Questions for those(and others) who mentioned organizations(however loosely defined) that have a kitty for those who put in bolts to draw from.
- What groups do that?(maybe some people who climb in those areas might be interested to assist in the funding some time).
- It seems that most people don't take advantage of, nor even wish for, that sort of thing. Reasons why? Maybe it's too formal a procedure, with documentation? Just feels weird? You have the money and it's your way of giving back? You do the routes for yourself, and others who get on them is the bonus, as Jcrew said, or not really part of the equation for you?
Thanks for the replies, all those who have taken the time to post or PM.
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budman
Jan 7, 2009, 7:18 PM
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The Place- The Colorado Plateau
Location- Ask Eric, because he won't know
How to get there- Wander in the desert for a while
Hardware- Poor style retro bolts, Lame ass hardware from "Adventure Races" in the desert, home made anchors for the real choss
Cost- Beer, Time with friends, Sense of Adventure, a bit of sunburn and dehydration from time to time (you have to suffer a little)
Gotta love the hand drill Dingus, drill by hand and you are less likely to place a bolt where it shouldn't be.
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dingus
Jan 7, 2009, 8:30 PM
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k.l.k wrote: dingus wrote: There is so much work involved in one of these projects I can't even begin to explain it to beginners. Just getting the gear to the base of this climb is a serious undertaking. Dude, I wouldn't post this bit online. It is open to misinterpretation by our public servants.
Hmmm, maybe. They're free to look me up I suppose.
DMT
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Tree_wrangler
Jan 8, 2009, 2:35 PM
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Not to worry. I'm one of the public servants. Nothing's been said that we don't know about. I mean seriously....we're the landowners/managers.....don't think that much really goes on out in the boonies that we DON'T see, at least eventually. It's only the boonies to city-dwellers......to some....it's just the home neighborhood.
Agree with one of Dingus's earlier statements.....just hiking to the rock to check it over is monumental route-finding adventure. I've hiked for hours up 4th class slopes, through heavy brush and windfall, in country loaded with ticks and poison oak, carrying every stitch of my gear (about 75 lbs I think) to finally arrive at the foot of large and aesthetic pillars only to be too pooped to do anything more than throw the pack down and just scramble around the rock checking for lines, bouldering around, etc.
And it's still a thrill, because I KNOW that, quite probably, some of the outcrops I've stood on haven't been visited by humans since the last Native had a vision quest atop them.
And that's just the rocks that are EASY to get too.
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shorty
Jan 8, 2009, 7:28 PM
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I can't state how much we've invested in He Who Shall Not Be Named in central Colorado. I know that bolt count (in route plus anchors) is currently just short of 750. I'm doing my best to keep Fixe in business. Add a couple of Bosch drills, quite a few ropes, tools out the wazoo, enough gas & car upkeep to cripple the retirement fund, untold shoes and clothing, and an incredible investment in personal time.
To date, it's been an 8-year labor of love -- interrupted by 1.5 years due to access issues from a very large forest fire. (Sneaking past reserve troops armed with M16s was interesting, not that I would do anything like that.) Cleanup and trail maintenance from the fire continues in earnest over the winter months, even though it's been 6 years since the blaze began.
Based on our current rate of development and tolerance for more self abuse, another 2 to 4 years of work will likely continue before we publish the results. It's getting to the point that I only vaguely recall climbing prior to HWSNBN.
We gripe about the challenges of developing a whole new area, but the rewards of spending a day just climbing the routes (especially with partners who haven't been there before) are absolutely amazing. And that's really what makes it all worthwhile for me.
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