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shiloj
Nov 19, 2002, 5:55 AM
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today was my first session on the Jones Board (also called a footless board). its basically a climbing wall with system holds suspended four feet up, with your feet pasted on little nothings at full extension underneath.
what i realy want to work is ENDURANCE. i want to get so pumped i'm fighting just to stay on. i want my pumped forearms to burst and spew lactic acid across the room.
but after the following workout, i'm sore, and i could hardly do another move, but i never got fully ballon-pumped. so is what i'm doing EFFECTIVE for my goals?
my session was an hour and a half of:
fingerboard hangs:
6 different grips
20 seconds each
3 burns on each grip.
static lock-offs:
3 different grips
lock off at 90 degrees and hold 5 sec
full lockoff and hold 5 sec
10 repetitions
3 sets
6-8 move boulder problems
6 different problems
each done twice in succession.
hangboard pull-ups
6 grips
8-12 reps
3 sets
at the end i could barely do 3 reps of hangboard pullups, but not because i was really pumped...i was just out of juice. so, am i working endurance here? any input?
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crux_clipper
Nov 19, 2002, 6:10 AM
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Yeah, you are, but thats all it is, endurance. You'll be able to hold on for a long peroid of time, but thats it. Your probably better off training your power endurance. This will allow you to hold on for a long time, and crank aswell.
The best way to train for this is to lead 6-8 routes in the gym, a few grades under your limit. Your working endurance, but also power.
Another way is to pick a route on the roof thats pretty hard for you, and run laps on it. You won't get very far intially, but work at it, and you'll find you'll be able to run the route 2-3 times before REALLY getting pumped.
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monkeyarm
Nov 19, 2002, 6:11 AM
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no what your working on is stregnth, which will indirectly add small amounts of endurance, but not what you are looking for.
To train endrance do repeated laps on a top roped climb, or climb and down climb and climb and down climb the same route again and again untill failure.
Also if you have a long wall bouldering back and forht along the legnth for as long as you can would also help.
Anothe activity that help endurance is to tie a rope about 4 feet long to a rope then tie the other end to a bar in such a way so that if you turn the bar the rope will wind around it.
now what you do is stand with your arms extended and tun the bar coiling up the rop then lowering the weight in a controlled manner for as long as you can.
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shiloj
Nov 19, 2002, 6:45 AM
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hehe...two replies, two opposite answers.
here's the deal. i have a pretty good power base for what i want right now. i have bouldered all season, and generally just done hard moves, not routes. like yaniro said: "if you cannot do a single hard move, there is nothing to endure."
but now i have the opposite problem. when i get on pumpy sport routes at my limit, i pump out FAST, even though the moves are individually much easier than what i do bouldering. so it seems i need endurance, which to me means climbing steep stuff and (almost) never getting pumped.
if this workout isn't getting me fully pumped like i do on routes, how can i develop my pump-tolerance and fight through it?
next season i'd like to send some sport projects...that will require i keep my same power level and dramatically improve my endurance.
thanks for any input.
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climbsomething
Nov 19, 2002, 6:47 AM
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This may not be terribly innovative but for endurance I just traverse. My endurance is most certainly not a question... I can hangdog like nobody's business
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wyomingclimber
Nov 19, 2002, 3:47 PM
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Geez, call me a wimp, but your 'endurance' workouts are more powerful than my power workouts.
To build on some of the stuff people have said above:
There are three fundamental physical areas you need to worry about in climbing and they're all really different.
Power: Basically your ability to effectively use your muscles. You train this (obviously) by short efforts at close to your max--basically the workout you outlined above with the exception of the pull ups. Interestingly, power training not only does nothing for endurance, it can actually make it worse.
Power-Endurance: This is partially a function of your max strength but also relates to your ability to endure high levels of lactic acid in your muscles. It is trained by doing fairly hard laps until you get so pumped you fall off (five minutes or something.) While important, this kind of training may actually also damage pure endurance slightly.
Endurance: To improve this, you need to create a high number of enlarged capillaries (which supply O2 to the muscles and carry away lactic acid) and increase mitochondrial density (the little organelles that produce muscle fuel.) This will reduce your recovery time to the point that you can shake off almost anything and recover significantly in the time it takes to move between holds.
How you train it: High volume, low intensity training (called LSD by endurance athletes.)
If I were you, I'd start doing long sessions traversing around your local gym. Say, an hour or two without touching the ground at an intensity level that never quite gives you a pump. You should be able to do this at least 5x per week without over-training because it's so easy.
Five weeks of this (if you can stand the boredom) and your endurance will skyrocket. You'll lose a little power, but don't worry, it'll come back.
Remember that this kind of training is a great time to focus on technique because you're not ever really tired. Also, concentrate on completely relaxing your forearm muscles as you reach for holds. Because of the demands of bouldering, boulderers tend to mantain a lot of residual tension in their muscles when they move, reducing recovery/endurance.
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rockprodigy
Nov 19, 2002, 4:25 PM
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You're asking for Power endurance. You should train that after your power training. So your 3 month cycle goes: easy endurance, strength, power, power-endurance. I train it by climbing routes on the weekends and by bouldering in the gym on weekdays. pick 3-4 boulder problem that are difficult, but that you can do (2 number grades below problems you usually have to work). Then try to do those 3-4 problems in a row without getting off the wall. Climb one, down climb, then the other, down climb, etc. The goal should be to do 25-35 moves where it is impossible for you to hold on any longer by the time you're done. I do 3 sets of that with 15-20 minutes of rest between (full rest).
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shiloj
Nov 19, 2002, 7:41 PM
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thanks everyone. my basic physio knowledge really sucks so its great to have a source of opinions and ideas.
most people seem to agree this is a power-endurance workout. hard moves, relatively short duration.
i followed a link to an 8a.nu article that gave a looooong hangboard workout designed to help you 'work through the pump'. i'll try adding that.
super-easy traversing: i have a few friends who are doing this, in a three-part cycle. but how does traversing at such an easy level that you never get pumped help you strengthen your body to work through getting pumped?
on the other hand, another friend said "what do you want to work endurance for? just boulder all winter and do a few routes in the spring...endurance comes quickly."
yeah, right...i tried that last year.
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monkeyarm
Nov 19, 2002, 8:01 PM
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because you will eventuall get pumped, i did a competition in NC last weekend that had a traverse across the entire gym (to was like a 350 ft traverse) using all holds and it kicked my ass. ou will eventuall get pumped doing this, what this type of training does doesn't help you get through being pumped as much as it increases your recovery time and increases the amount you can climb before you get pumped.
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boardcrazzy
Nov 19, 2002, 8:20 PM
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OK, I may get some of the words mixed up here, but there are two processes, arobic and anerobic, right? One uses oxygen (arobic) for fuel and one uses glycogen without oxygen (anerobic). Power comes from using glycogen, which produces lactic acid which you feel as a pump. Therefore, if you want to train for endurance you don't want to feel a pump. People are telling you to train low intensity for endurance because it increases your bodies efficiency at using fuel in an aerobic state. This in turn allows the body to be more efficient at removing lactic acid, thus reducing the pump quickly. Someone said this above when they said you'll be able to shake off a pump in the time it takes to reach for the next hold. Your not really training to hold off a pump, your training to get rid of it quickly, but it will feel like you are holding it off.
I dabbled with small adventure races for a while and tried the long (up to 2 hrs) slow distance running at a speed barely above a walk (similarly to bouldering laps without a pump). It doesn't feel like your gaining anything, but when you go out for a day at a high intensity, you'll find that during incredibly short breaks, you'll be completely recovered. I know running isn't climbing, but the same principles apply, as it all involves the use of muscles.
[ This Message was edited by: boardcrazzy on 2002-11-19 12:21 ]
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kinz
Nov 19, 2002, 8:21 PM
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so far there are some good replies but i figure ill throw in my two cents since i seem to have been in the same predicament. a fried of mine tried following the basic workout in eric horst's how to climb 5.12 and went from climbin hard ll low 12 to hard 12s after he finished the cycle so, needless to say, the program works reasonably well. unfortunately i cant stand the boredom of it at the moment so ive been doing things a bit differently. usuall in my workout ill warm up by doing a lot of traversing and doing some mild endurance work. then to keep power up i will work on redpointing a couple of projects for a bit and do laps on things that challenge (possibly the power endurance thing that many have commented on) and once i am reasonably pumped i will rest (while staying warm) for about 20 minutes. while i rest ill eat a power bar or something to keep up glucose levels and such. then ill start climbing again but just doing laps. when i do my laps i dont just cruise on jugs (even though i am going for time). i alternate jug, jug, hard 3 or 4 move sequence, jug, jug, etc. this is good for learning how to work through the pump and realize that even though i am tired i can still hold on to bad holds. it is also good for focusing on technique. after i am really tired then i might do a few juggy laps to release myself of any energy i might have left. this workout i probably do about 3 times a week. it definitely varies though because usually i try to listen to my body and vary on how im feeling. also if im really bored with laps i just boulder that day or whatever. the main thing for me is to always push myself and have fun and whatever that entails is what i do. hope this helps. would enjoy any criticism as well.
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thomasribiere
Nov 19, 2002, 8:34 PM
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90 minutes of board seem EXCESSIVE to me. Take care of you, don't injure your tendons. Anyway, it looks more like power than endurance.
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shiloj
Nov 20, 2002, 12:07 AM
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ya rockjohn, not all of us are so lucky. i'm trying a program because i've plateaued, i'm impatient, and i have alot of projects plagueing my dreams.
somebody answered my endurance question very clearly...about endurance being aerobic and therefore you don't want to enter the anareobic state of pump. thanks.
as for 90 minutes on the board being too long, maybe this is true. i'll fine tune my program a bit and see how i feel in a few days.
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overlord
Nov 21, 2002, 10:26 AM
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well, 90min is definitely too damn long. the boar training should be only an addition to climbing training. maybe you should also work on technique. and endurance (imho) wont help much with your plateau, power endurance and power will.
and, be patient, or you will injure something and really learn what a plateau means.
CLIMB ON
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