I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing.

thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!

scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that.

“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”

Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:

Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.

Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though.

No. Sorry. Absolutely not. That route is one of the most worthless piles of rubbish I have ever seen in my life. I imagine (or hope) that it could have only ever been a visiting climber, who cared nothing for the quality of they did, would ever seriously consider putting a "route" up there.