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SummitSnowStorm
Feb 5, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Hi,
I´ve read in quite a few books (TFC,Eric Horst & Licence to climb,Udo Neumann) that bouldering is a great way for beginners to improve technique. However,many of the people I climb with (experienced people) recommended me rather not to do it,because of finger injury! They say beginners should just climb lots of easy routes,in order to work on technique.
What´s your opinnion on this matter? I´m currently onsighting 5.10a,maybe even 5.10b on a good day,and I thought about focusing on improving my technique rather than training raw power (at least for a year or two from now on).
I´m actually asking because I´m thinking about buying a boulder pad (the mondo) but that costs quite a lot,so i`d like to be sure about the utility of boulder in order to improve my technique before buying it.
Thanks a lot!
Alex
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Valarc
Feb 6, 2009, 12:00 AM
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I guess it all depends on the type of bouldering you try to use to work on your technique. If all you do is throw yourself at super powerful overhung crimp routes, you very well may destroy your tendons.
However, if you take a road trip to HP40 and seriously work the delicate technique focused sloper problems that dominate there, I guarantee you'll come home with improved technique.
There is only so much technique you are going to gain if all you do is climb easy stuff. You need to venture into harder territory to figure out harder moves.
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uni_jim
Feb 6, 2009, 12:24 AM
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if all you do is boulder, you won't have the endurance to pull your carcass up anything taller than 20 feet. You can learn technique on the long routes just as well as on the pebbles.
your friends say you need lots of time on easy routes, but you need to try harder climbs in order to climb harder. The problem is that easy routes do not require the advanced techniques that hard ones do.
climb a few easy ones (cuz they are fun), climb at your level (cuz you can), climb above your level (to make it your new level).
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SummitSnowStorm
Feb 6, 2009, 12:42 AM
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So what would be for example the differences between bouldering for technique and...climbing longer routes for technique? I guess only the endurance,right?
Apart from that,what advantages will I have bouldering compared to climbing? More power,less endurance?Actually,what would you do in my case?Try a mixture of climbing and bouldering or focus only on climbing?
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Builderdash
Feb 6, 2009, 12:44 AM
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I've been climbing (bouldering) for about a year. I've top roped twice, but i'm not belay certified.
My experience? Pulled tendons all the way down into my elbow twice from loading my 3rd and 4th fingers in two finger pockets. A couple times i've also tweaked different joints in my fingers on both hands.
Time out of climbing from all of this...about a month.
Now, compare me to someone who has only rope climbed. They will kick my ass as far as anything endurance related is concerned. Still, how often is a heel hook really NECESSARY, on 5.10s and below? I have no idea since i don't rope climb, but i do boulder problems EVERYTIME i climb that require heel hooks, thus i would assume that i probably get more practice at it than most rope climbers who've climbed a year. Same thing with most "advanced" climbing skills, you run into them even on easy bouldering problem, b/c they're supposed to help you learn those techniques for the wall!
Nice thing is you can tailor your bouldering to work your weaknesses which will translate quickly to the wall, rather than only getting to practice that weakness a time or two on a route or in a day.
Will you get injured more? Probably. Bouldering is very strenuous and burly, another reason i like it. I will say that from being injured and analyzing the causes i've become MUCH more aware of my body and how it operates (though i'm still a novice). I wouldn't say that i couldn't have attained this through rope climbing, but b/c of the increased risk of injury and potential time away from climbing, i learned to pay attention to it somewhat quicker than i would have otherwise.
In closing, i'll admit i'm scared to rope in b/c i'm afraid i'll stop bouldering, might be the reverse is true for your friend who said to stay away b/c of "finger injuries."
Dunno, just my thoughts.
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Valarc
Feb 6, 2009, 12:47 AM
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I would do the type of climbing you enjoy.
I boulder a lot recently, and have certainly lost endurance compared to when I was climbing on rope a lot, but I have also made gains in both raw strength and technique.
The biggest advantage of bouldering from a training standpoint is how easy it is to structure a regimen. Things like 4x4s are much more
difficult to do efficiently when you're dealing with ropes and pro.
But that's not why I boulder. I do it because, at the moment, it's the type of climbing I enjoy most.
If you really want more info on how to use bouldering to your advantage to train technique, pick up the book The Self Coached Climber.
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ryanb
Feb 6, 2009, 12:59 AM
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If you are drawn to climbing hard start bouldering and find new or additional mentors. I suspect your current ones just want a partner for moderate climbs (nothing wrong with that).
If you have access to real rock bouldering then you should absolutely get a pad.
The keys to improving technique as a beginner are staying uninjured and climbing as much as you can in different styles... forcing your body and mind to adapt to a greater variety of moves, wall angles, hold types etc...
Bouldering allows you to try a greater number of hard moves in a shorter period of time. Assuming there is a good local scene, it also gives you an opportunity to watch expert climbers up close and pick up technique tips.
Tendon injuries are a risk but a manageable one, there is lots of literature out there on avoiding them (always warm up, drink water, rest, know when to stop, strengthen open handed positions).
Starting bouldering now will also provide a gentle start to the very slow process of strengthening your tendons to allow more finger strength in the future. You can train climbing endurance quickly when ever you need it ... it responds in a couple of weeks but gaining power is a life time pursuit.
The mondo is a hugh pad and expensive. You will probably be better served with buying a normal sized pad in the $130 - $200 range initially... lots easier to transport and you can get more ground coverage by sharing with partners or by buying a 2nd pad later if you feel the need.
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Valarc
Feb 6, 2009, 1:04 AM
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ryanb wrote: The mondo is a hugh pad and expensive. You will probably be better served with buying a normal sized pad in the $130 - $200 range initially... lots easier to transport and you can get more ground coverage by sharing with partners or by buying a 2nd pad later if you feel the need.
I would agree with this with one caveat. A huge pad like the mondo probably isn't needed unless you're doing a lot of crazy highballing or something. I would rather have two normal sized pads than one massive one - they are a lot more versatile that way.
Personally, I am NOT a fan of trying to save money with crash pads. I bought a cheap mad rock pad as my first, and it sucked. I then went and bought a pair of Organic pads, and they are, hands down, the best pads I've fallen on, and I've fallen on quite a few since then.
http://organicclimbing.com
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ladyscarlett
Feb 6, 2009, 1:19 AM
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I'm a beginner and I boulder and rope, really working to do 50-50 of each. Both can compliment each other.
I know a lot of my bouldering buddies do get finger injuries. I too have injured myself more in bouldering than roping. 1 minor injury due to boulder, 0 due to rope. Recovery time 2 days rest. That being said, I have not (knock on wood) yet blown out any tendons, anywhere, on boulders or ropes - sore, but no injuries
I suggest trying to keep the boulder v rope ratio to 50-50 and boulder what you want. To keep finger injury at bay, just really really really be aware of your body. If you do a problem and your fingers are really tired and hurting, find some jugs, or even call it a day - the boulder will be there tomorrow. I've been told that when beginning, never be afraid of babying the finger tendons, cause they take forever to heal. This approach has helped me build my tendon strength without serious injury, so I have to suggest it.
Bouldering has helped my rope climbing on a variety of levels, so I say go for it - just know that most issues I've seen arise from an imbalance of boulder to rope or pushing oneself to the point of injury - save it for the epic climbs, not for training!
my 2p
ls
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curt
Feb 6, 2009, 1:47 AM
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uni_jim wrote: if all you do is boulder, you won't have the endurance to pull your carcass up anything taller than 20 feet..
Did you hear that from somebody stupid or did you just make it up yourself?
Curt
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d0nk3yk0n9
Feb 6, 2009, 2:51 AM
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I've been almost exclusively bouldering for several months now, and I can tell you that it's not about what style of climbing you do, it's about what you climb and who you climb with. I know several people who've been climbing for many times as long as I have who struggle on the same boulder problems I do because they aren't willing to push themselves. If you push yourself and try harder things than you think you can do, you will improve quickly. Also, if you climb with people who climb better than you do, you will improve quickly because they can help push you harder.
Again, I started bouldering on a regular basis only a few months ago, in September. At the time, I could barely pull myself up jug routes; I was extremely bad. Now, because I've been willing to try any problem on the wall, even if I don't think I can do it, and because I climb with people who push me, I'm going to ABS10 nationals next week.
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Senate156
Feb 6, 2009, 3:44 AM
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I've been following the advice of a buddy of mine who is from France. I told him I started bouldering to improve my strength and mental problem solving skills and he basically went on to say that all that is bullshit. He claims that he never bouldered till he moved to the states and by that time he was onsighting 5.13b's. So, although I really enjoy bouldering I concentrate on pushing the grades and doing lots of laps and 4x4's with routes in the gym (rather than problems). He creates bouldery routes for me, but always stresses endurance.
However, It's important to note that I am training to send my project which is a really long 5.12d at the red. I would imagine things would be different if I was working on something else.
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Builderdash
Feb 6, 2009, 3:53 AM
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"Now, because I've been willing to try any problem on the wall, even if I don't think I can do it, and because I climb with people who push me, I'm going to ABS10 nationals next week."
Dead on with everything you've said, sir, but is that the second or third time i've read a post of yours that mentions going to nationals?
Really? I'm happy for you, but i noticed no one else is laying out their #'s or accomplishments anywhere, and going to ABS10 national doesn't magically make your advice better than anyone else's. i don't know, I'd feel silly...i think.
Peace,
Ry.
(This post was edited by Builderdash on Feb 6, 2009, 3:54 AM)
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d0nk3yk0n9
Feb 6, 2009, 3:59 AM
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Builderdash wrote: "Now, because I've been willing to try any problem on the wall, even if I don't think I can do it, and because I climb with people who push me, I'm going to ABS10 nationals next week." Dead on with everything you've said, sir, but is that the second or third time i've read a post of yours that mentions going to nationals? Really? I'm happy for you, but i noticed no one else is laying out their #'s or accomplishments anywhere, and going to ABS10 national doesn't magically make your advice better than anyone else's. i don't know, I'd feel silly...i think. Peace, Ry.
Yeah, I've probably mentioned it once or twice. Sorry about that, but I'm just a little excited since I've never been to a competition that big before.
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Builderdash
Feb 6, 2009, 4:10 AM
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No biggie brother. I wasn't b/s'n when i said i'm happy for you, that is really cool. I just didn't understand what it had to do with the thread. Now that we've hijacked the it though, what group are you competing in and where's the home base? I seem to remember OH, but i could be wrong.
Oh, and by the way, Good Luck!
Peace,
Ry.
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keinangst
Feb 6, 2009, 1:48 PM
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I think that bouldering can absolutely improve your technique for routes...up to a certain point. At around the 5.10 level, endurance starts to take over. You can run laps on a V2 or V3 and replicate this feeling (maybe), but it's still not quite the same.
But as far as learning how to use different body positions and balance, it's definitely a good tool.
I wouldn't steer you away from a Mad Pad if you can't afford something nicer. Just be ready to replace it in a year or two if you use it a lot. If you know you're going to stick with it, go ahead and splurge for the Mondo or the Organic pads. An Organic Pad once rushed into a burning building to save some kittens. Saw it with my own two eyes.
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caliclimbergrl
Feb 7, 2009, 3:00 AM
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If what you really like to do is routes, I think bouldering can help with some things like balance and body position like others have said already. I also find it helps me with strength. But it really is it's own sport. If you like bouldering, buy a crash pad and boulder!! But if what you really like are routes, then I don't think you really need a crash pad. If you go out with some bouldering buddies once in a while and/or boulder in the gym, that'll do just as much as far as technique training. Really, I think it depends on what you enjoy. Personally, I don't really like bouldering. You may catch me on a problem at the gym once in a blue moon, but that's about it. It sort of sounds like you like bouldering and are trying to justify that by saying you're using it to train. Bouldering isn't practice or training for something else -- it's its own sport. So if you like it, do it!! If not ... I'd say skip it.
(This post was edited by caliclimbergrl on Feb 7, 2009, 3:01 AM)
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paclimber12
Feb 8, 2009, 11:51 PM
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It depends what type or climbing your doing. Really crimpy slabs and faces are going to help you out usually more than a steep powerful problem technique wise.
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tantrum
Feb 17, 2009, 7:39 PM
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"if all you do is boulder, you won't have the endurance to pull your carcass up anything taller than 20 feet"
100% FALSE.
Strength training translates into strength gains and endurance gains.
Endurance training only translates to endurance gains.
If you have to pick one type of training, endurance or strength ... strength should win everytime.
I'm a mixed climber, top rope, sport lead and bouldering. I'd say that the majority of my physical and technique gains come from bouldering and most of my mental gains come from sport lead.
If you're going to start focusing on boulder, you really need to spend a little time each day working on your extendor tendons and the opposing muscles in your arms and chest.
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shimanilami
Feb 17, 2009, 8:01 PM
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Perhaps the best argument for bouldering as a training tool is that you can do it by yourself. The flexibility of arranging your schedule and workouts is a major plus. And climbing anything - even a tree - will do more for you than sitting on your ass not climbing.
Regarding endurance, it's asinine to suggest that you can't build it while bouldering. This morning, I went to the gym and traversed the bouldering area for 40 minutes without getting off the wall. With such workouts, one can train endurance specifically and effectively.
Regarding injury, the best way to avoid it is to not be an idiot. If you need to ask what that means, you'll learn. Pain and suffering are good teachers.
Regarding the pad, why not? Worst case, you've got a nice bed to sleep on.
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