|
rockandlice
Feb 17, 2009, 5:55 PM
Post #51 of 149
(1788 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2008
Posts: 622
|
Maybe you could represent dannyd in his trial.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 17, 2009, 5:58 PM
Post #52 of 149
(1784 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
N_Oo_B wrote: I highly doubt a lawsuit would do anything. I'm guessing you signed a waiver when you started going to the gym. I suspect that if the climber had been seriously injured as a direct result of being dropped by an employee of the gym that that waiver would be about as useful to the gym as toilet paper. However, the climber in this case doesn't have anything to sue for. Did he even go to the doctor or miss a day of work due to this swollen ankle? If he did, he ought to be compensated for his expenses and loss of income by the gym. Jay
|
|
|
|
|
lhwang
Feb 17, 2009, 6:03 PM
Post #53 of 149
(1771 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2005
Posts: 582
|
Hmm... interesting thread. I have to agree with a lot of what dingus said. Some additional observations... I'm a doctor, and we get these medical malpractice lectures every once in a while about how to avoid being sued. Adverse events are going to happen in medicine... nobody is perfect, and if you read the consent form you sign before surgery, it usually mentions us having discussed the risks and benefits of the procedure and you consenting to us doing the surgery. It's absolutely right though that a signed consent form won't protect us from getting sued successfully if we're grossly negligent. Anyway, when an adverse event does happen in medicine, we're advised to disclose fully to the patient and their family, acknowledge our error if there was one, apologize, and explain how we intend to prevent this from happening to someone else. Because a lot of lawsuits start up because of poor communication after the adverse event happens... when a patient thinks we're trying to hide something, or when they feel like we're not acknowledging their concerns. So I get where you're coming from... someone who owed you a duty of care was negligent, you're suffering as a direct result of that negligence, and the gym/belayer are shrugging it off, which makes you feel like they're not taking you seriously and that this might potentially happen to someone else. I'm sorry this happened to you. Have you been to see a doctor to find out how serious your injury is?
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Feb 17, 2009, 6:24 PM
Post #54 of 149
(1726 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
This thread has potential to go places! Oh...the places it may go.... If a troll, it's actually a really good one, I think. But here's what I think: - I would never consider a 16-year old an "instructor." He was a gym belay monkey. But I can see how someone who is new to climbing wouldn't know that. - Dropped? BAD. Doesn't matter how old the belay monkey was, if the hottest cutie walked past and that's why he let go, or what. The #1 job if the belayer is: Do Not Drop! - Sue? hahahaha. Maybe if you had actually been hurt, gone to the doctor, incurred expenses.... Still, if you're still feeling some pain, maybe go in and get it checked. - The belay monkey probably did get chewed up for the drop, just not in front of every one. You could call the gym owner and discuss the incident, and you might get a little more insight on it. I pretty much doubt a gym owner would blow off an employee dropping someone. Still climbing? You might want to invest in one of my "Do Not Drop" t-shirts! For Him:http://www.cafepress.com/climbaddict.96436625 And, since you're part of a couple, for Her: http://www.cafepress.com/climbaddict.96436631
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 17, 2009, 6:30 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Carnage
Feb 17, 2009, 6:39 PM
Post #55 of 149
(1699 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2007
Posts: 923
|
happiegrrrl wrote: This thread has potential to go places! Oh...the places it may go.... If a troll, it's actually a really good one, I think. But here's what I think: - I would never consider a 16-year old an "instructor." He was a gym belay monkey. But I can see how someone who is new to climbing wouldn't know that. - Dropped? BAD. Doesn't matter how old the belay monkey was, if the hottest cutie walked past and that's why he let go, or what. The #1 job if the belayer is: Do Not Drop! - Sue? hahahaha. Maybe if you had actually been hurt, gone to the doctor, incurred expenses.... Still, if you're still feeling some pain, maybe go in and get it checked. - The belay monkey probably did get chewed up for the drop, just not in front of every one. You could call the gym owner and discuss the incident, and you might get a little more insight on it. I pretty much doubt a gym owner would blow off an employee dropping someone. Still climbing? You might want to invest in one of my "Do Not Drop" t-shirts! For Him: http://www.cafepress.com/climbasddict.96436625 And, since you're part of a couple, for Her: http://www.cafss.com/climbaddict.96436631 fuck you, dont try to use this as a way to sell you stupid t-shirts
(This post was edited by Carnage on Feb 17, 2009, 7:41 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Feb 17, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #56 of 149
(1695 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
too late.....
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Feb 17, 2009, 7:16 PM
Post #57 of 149
(1663 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
I'm with Dingus on this one. There is no way in hell you, as a beginner there for instruction, assumed the risk of being dropped by a gym employee, waiver or not. A lawsuit is also silly and probably totally impractical. It would represent a disproportionate investment of time and money in the service of revenge, with a very questionable outcome. Bad for climbing and bad for your soul too. My recommendation is a slight variation on the others. You should write a letter to the gym management. Not a discussion, a letter. A polite letter. In the letter, you should describe as objectively as possible what happened, what your injury was, how it was treated, what expenses you incurred treating it, and what other activities might have been restricted while you were recovering. If you can include a photo of the injury, that would be good too. Without getting into haranguing mode, keeping the tone objective and polite, it is appropriate to say that the events you experienced were the result of either negligence or incompetence or both on the part of the gym employee. The conclusion of the letter should propose what you would like the gym to do. My recommendation is to leave them to their business as regards employee retention and training. The account in the letter is all that has to be said in this regard. Trying to get the kid fired may feed you need for revenge but does you absolutely no good and may not even be ultimately best for the gym. Stay out of that part of it. It is appropriate to ask them to compensate you in some way. The most obvious way would be to ask for some type of substantial membership accomodation, if you are interested enough to continue and would still want to go that gym. Off the top of my head I'd say a year's membership for you and the gf would not be unreasonable. Somewhat less desirable would be to ask them to compensate your expenses, which I suspect are quite minimal. End the letter with a comment about how you are sure that what happened is every bit as distressing to them as it has been for you and that you are sure that it is possible to find an honorable end to this unfortunate incident.
|
|
|
|
|
mojomonkey
Feb 17, 2009, 7:37 PM
Post #58 of 149
(1639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 869
|
rockandlice wrote: For all you know I could have been climbing when you were in diapers. Blah blah. For all you know camhead is wearing a diaper right now.
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Feb 17, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #59 of 149
(1607 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
shimmer wrote: dannyd wrote: the waiver states injury as a result of your doing. Not as a result of the instructors neglect. Better reread that waiver. I'd almost bet there's a line in there about waiving responsibility for the gym even if the instructors forget to tell you how to or not to do something. Those waivers are pretty well laid out to protect the gym and its employees. You likely have very little recourse other than filing a complaint with the gym. Time and time again judges throw wavers out in a lawsuit case. More often then not a judge will not dismiss a lawsuit because you signed a waver. Like others said, I would speak to the gym owner. At the minimal that guy should be fired. It blows my mind that they let someone under the age of 18 work there anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
md3
Feb 17, 2009, 8:35 PM
Post #60 of 149
(1581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: 172
|
You take basic instruction to learn what the risks are and how to accept responsibility for risk. Being dropped by the instructor in the gym on one of your first instructional climbs is not an inherent risk of the sport (as might be true of spraining your ankle while bouldering or twisting your back while trying a move). Res ipsa loquitur. But no injury = no law suit. The burden shouldn't be on you to educate the gym. Maybe just e-mail or write the management with a link to this thread, so that in the future if what might be inadequate staff hiring, training and management policies do lead to someone getting hurt, the plaintiff might be able to find your incident, and some information on whether the gym adequately investigated and addressed the situation, which could help their suit for funds to pay for the lifetime of care they will need after having broken their neck.
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Feb 17, 2009, 8:41 PM
Post #61 of 149
(1583 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
USnavy wrote: It blows my mind that they let someone under the age of 18 work there anyway. WHy? I know plenty of kids under 18 who are more competent belayers than a lot of adults I have seen.
|
|
|
|
|
rockandlice
Feb 17, 2009, 9:21 PM
Post #62 of 149
(1553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2008
Posts: 622
|
blueeyedclimber wrote: USnavy wrote: It blows my mind that they let someone under the age of 18 work there anyway. WHy? I know plenty of kids under 18 who are more competent belayers than a lot of adults I have seen. This is true.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Feb 17, 2009, 9:45 PM
Post #63 of 149
(1534 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
.....what if the OP was really just J_ung in disguise, trolling for thread count? Where has he been lately, anyway? I bet he started the Dogs a the Crags thread, too.....
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Feb 17, 2009, 9:47 PM
Post #64 of 149
(1531 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
shoo wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: While I can certainly understand you're frustration... Climbing is a dangerous sport and even in the controlled environment of a gym risk cannot be eliminated. I'm thinking if your really peeved, speak with the gym owner. I wouldn't be threatening but upset is fine. Perhaps they may have a kind word or a free day or two to offer. But frankly, you are trying a risky and dangerous sport. You need to accept that risk before you tie into any rope. You have got to be kidding me. This is a top-rope in a gym. There is absolutely no excuse for a gym employee to drop a climber. None. This is in no way shape or form acceptable, nor is it at all "normal." Anyone who drops a climber on top-rope isn't even close to qualified enough to be belaying anyone, anywhere, especially professionally. The first thing I would do is directly confront the owner. The second is to never climb there again. I wholly agree
|
|
|
|
|
durangoclimber
Feb 17, 2009, 9:59 PM
Post #65 of 149
(1508 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 179
|
Lots of good points. Unfortunately I have been involved with a lawsuit at a gym I worked for. Didn't involve me directly but to those who think a waiver is bomb proof - damn that's stupid. You CANNOT waive your right to use our legal system if you are hurt. Hurt - was this person hurt??? Would suing someone make this all better? Communicate with the gym. Read lhwang's post again. About the best input on this thread. Getting sued SUCKS BALLS. I think it should be a last resort. It REALLY hurts this small industry. Sounds like the gym is run by assholes. Just put their name out here and none of us will go there. That should hurt em'. So which gym was it? We should all email them with our expert advise.
(This post was edited by durangoclimber on Feb 17, 2009, 10:00 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 17, 2009, 10:10 PM
Post #66 of 149
(1491 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
If that was me, I stand in the parking lot till that dude exits then I would kick his as* with a 2 x 4 and run my cruiser over his left and right foot to give him a lesson. That is how I do my out of court settlements
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #67 of 149
(1480 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
majid_sabet wrote: If that was me, I stand in the parking lot till that dude exits then I would kick his as* with a 2 x 4 and run my cruiser over his left and right foot to give him a lesson. That is how I do my out of court settlements So you'd choose to spend a few years in jail because you've got a sore ankle?
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Feb 17, 2009, 10:45 PM
Post #68 of 149
(1457 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
angry wrote: majid_sabet wrote: If that was me, I stand in the parking lot till that dude exits then I would kick his as* with a 2 x 4 and run my cruiser over his left and right foot to give him a lesson. That is how I do my out of court settlements So you'd choose to spend a few years in jail because you've got a sore ankle?
The Denver Post wrote: Denver (Reuters): The mangled body of a pedicab driver was discovered in downtown Denver saturday night. The unidentified male suffered from massive head wounds appearing to have caused by blunt 2x4 damage, and his legs were run over by treaded landcruiser tires. However, the ultimate cause of death was by strangluation, and blood-specked srands of what appeared to be the inner core of a climbing rope were found near the scene of the crime. Police apprehended the prime suspect, Majid_sabet, after he was stranded on the popular climb "Bastille Crack" in Eldorado Canyon the following morning.
|
|
|
|
|
clausti
Feb 17, 2009, 11:11 PM
Post #69 of 149
(1440 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2004
Posts: 5690
|
rgold wrote: I'm with Dingus on this one. There is no way in hell you, as a beginner there for instruction, assumed the risk of being dropped by a gym employee, waiver or not. A lawsuit is also silly and probably totally impractical. It would represent a disproportionate investment of time and money in the service of revenge, with a very questionable outcome. Bad for climbing and bad for your soul too. My recommendation is a slight variation on the others. You should write a letter to the gym management. Not a discussion, a letter. A polite letter. In the letter, you should describe as objectively as possible what happened, what your injury was, how it was treated, what expenses you incurred treating it, and what other activities might have been restricted while you were recovering. If you can include a photo of the injury, that would be good too. Without getting into haranguing mode, keeping the tone objective and polite, it is appropriate to say that the events you experienced were the result of either negligence or incompetence or both on the part of the gym employee. The conclusion of the letter should propose what you would like the gym to do. My recommendation is to leave them to their business as regards employee retention and training. The account in the letter is all that has to be said in this regard. Trying to get the kid fired may feed you need for revenge but does you absolutely no good and may not even be ultimately best for the gym. Stay out of that part of it. It is appropriate to ask them to compensate you in some way. The most obvious way would be to ask for some type of substantial membership accomodation, if you are interested enough to continue and would still want to go that gym. Off the top of my head I'd say a year's membership for you and the gf would not be unreasonable. Somewhat less desirable would be to ask them to compensate your expenses, which I suspect are quite minimal. End the letter with a comment about how you are sure that what happened is every bit as distressing to them as it has been for you and that you are sure that it is possible to find an honorable end to this unfortunate incident. oh look- a use for the 5 star rating. seriously, this is excellent advice. and, just as seriously, but not as much under the OP's control, that employees ass should get fired, stat. it's not a problem with being 16 (i was a perfectly competent belay-for-my-membership-monkey at 16), it's problem with being a moron. getting dropped on a toprope in gym belayed from an anchor bolted into structural steel is NOT an inherent risk of the "sport." it's gross negligence on the part of the belayer. who should get fired.
|
|
|
|
|
ladyscarlett
Feb 17, 2009, 11:27 PM
Post #70 of 149
(1427 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 376
|
Wow, craziness! Like many on here, I agree with Dingus.
blueeyedclimber wrote: USnavy wrote: It blows my mind that they let someone under the age of 18 work there anyway. WHy? I know plenty of kids under 18 who are more competent belayers than a lot of adults I have seen. I agree with blueeyedclimber and I don't think that his age had anything to do with his competency to give an intro 'lesson' and it probably had more to do with his lack of knowledge - which can happen to anyone, regardless of age. One suggestion, as an alternative to a lawsuit (which sounds like a Bad Idea) that's probably a little underhanded, but works, is spread the bad word. If you are unhappy with they gym, and don't want to support them, spread the word, share how you feel, name drop. Word of mouth is significantly more powerful than we think. Like I said, underhanded, but waaay better than a lawsuit in my opinion - especially as you have valid reason... though talking to the owner is the most reasonable. sorry you had such a negative experience - it's not all like that! ls
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 17, 2009, 11:38 PM
Post #71 of 149
(1412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
camhead wrote: angry wrote: majid_sabet wrote: If that was me, I stand in the parking lot till that dude exits then I would kick his as* with a 2 x 4 and run my cruiser over his left and right foot to give him a lesson. That is how I do my out of court settlements So you'd choose to spend a few years in jail because you've got a sore ankle? The Denver Post wrote: Denver (Reuters): The mangled body of a pedicab driver was discovered in downtown Denver saturday night. The unidentified male suffered from massive head wounds appearing to have caused by blunt 2x4 damage, and his legs were run over by treaded landcruiser tires. However, the ultimate cause of death was by strangluation, and blood-specked srands of what appeared to be the inner core of a climbing rope were found near the scene of the crime. Police apprehended the prime suspect, Majid_sabet, after he was stranded on the popular climb "Bastille Crack" in Eldorado Canyon the following morning. you got that report all wrong. That is after ANGRY drops me while climbing and he never returns home with his yellow cab
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 17, 2009, 11:43 PM
Post #72 of 149
(1401 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Oddly enough pedicab parts begain showing up in all sorts of vehicles on the Karakorum Highway. DMT
|
|
|
|
|
Adk
Feb 17, 2009, 11:56 PM
Post #73 of 149
(1388 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085
|
I say pure negligence. It might be different if his dog bit you though. Oh nevermind. No it wouldn't. Hope the ankle feel better. Just because someone works at a gym does not mean they are a good belayer.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_eng
Feb 18, 2009, 12:41 AM
Post #74 of 149
(1360 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2007
Posts: 1701
|
camhead wrote: rockandlice wrote: Okay, I'm done being nice. After your last comment, it is clear you are a complete jerk. Do us all a favor and NEVER climb again. You are clearly not cut out for this sport. It's really cute to hear your 5.9-toproping* self lecturing us about who is or isn't "cut out for this sport." You veritable fountain of wisdom, you! *taken from his profile info. I hereby predict that he will now say "I haven't updated my profile in a while! I am projecting a 12a! I is strawng!" What did the asshole say to the other asshole? .
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Feb 18, 2009, 1:16 AM
Post #75 of 149
(1346 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
All I have to say on this matter is This: Even though there is no excuse for a climbing gym to have a 16 year old kid "teaching" you, and he dropped you, BY SUING< YOU ARE RAISING THE INSURANCE RATES ON ALL CLIMBING GYMS EVERYWHERE. Especially considering the fact that you were not really hurt. SO: thanks alot, Dou$hwad , because if you sue, every one of us who ever climbs in a gym has to pay for increased insurance rates for climbing gyms in general because of your greedy little ass beng all butthurt about what amounts to the distance of a good bouldering fall. The best solution is for you to quit climbing, because we don't want people like you in the climbing community anyway. Just go away. Now.
|
|
|
|
|
|