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johnwesely
Feb 16, 2009, 1:01 PM
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If you don't use gloves then you will not need them.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Feb 16, 2009, 2:32 PM
Post #52 of 73
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rgold wrote: US Navy, I think the Petzl Cordex gloves work find and will not have too great an impact on grip force. They are made for belaying and are intelligently thought out. Belay gloves also protect your hands from grit and aluminum particles that are otherwise ground in, and are nice to have on when you are trying to disconnect the rope from a hot rappel device. I used Metolius fingerless gloves for several years, but switched over to the Petzl full-fingered ones. The fingerless gloves still expose your fingertips to burning and, especially in hot weather, can be a struggle to remove.
I'd like to second this. In fact, I also think that the Metolius gloves are way too stiff to be used for belaying. I tried them on in a gear shop yesterday just to see how they feel and I had absolutely no manual dexterity in them, while I practically never have to take off the Petzl Cordex gloves except to climb. I have almost full grip in them, and I can rig things, screw biners closed, tie knots in rope, cord, my shoelaces, pretty much anything without having to take them off. I don't use them all the time when I'm belaying, but I definitely keep them anyway for rapping, because I tend to be a very fast rappeller (as in, last time I was rappelling at camp, I was warned "Be careful that you don't glaze the rope going that fast).
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Hotpies
Feb 16, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #53 of 73
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I just stretch an unlubricated, ribbed condom over my break hand at each belay. They're super light, and the friction is absolutely amazing. They tend to get chewed after just a couple of lowers or a big catch, so be sure to bring a few.
I would use gloves, but I'm all about versatility in gear.
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charley
Feb 16, 2009, 4:59 PM
Post #54 of 73
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Hotpies wrote: I just stretch an unlubricated, ribbed condom over my break hand at each belay. They're super light, and the friction is absolutely amazing. They tend to get chewed after just a couple of lowers or a big catch, so be sure to bring a few. I would use gloves, but I'm all about versatility in gear.
Really intelligent.
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time2clmb
Feb 16, 2009, 6:28 PM
Post #55 of 73
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In reply to: and he climbs 5.13 sport / 5.12 multi-pitch trad
Example = fail.
There are people that climb hard that are not very good belayers....and visa versa.
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bill413
Feb 19, 2009, 1:51 PM
Post #56 of 73
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rgold wrote: For climbers who do not do a lot of lowering, it has become clear that the (apparently misnamed) Munter hitch is actually the best non-locking belay device, and in the case of double ropes has the advantage of palm-up belaying. However, independent rope control is virtually impossible if a single Munter hitch is formed with both ropes. In the case of half ropes, I think it worth experimenting with two Munter hitches, each on its own belay biner, something I've been thinking of trying a bit this Spring. This can't possibly be a new idea, however, so I suppose there will be disadvantages that are already known...
Many years ago I tried using two seperate biners for two ropes, Munter hitch on each. I found that the biners tended to pinch together, making paying out slack difficult. I didn't have to catch any falls on the rig, I think that would have worked, but lowering was not a reasonable operation because of the trapping of the rope. There was also the problem of the pinched biners making it nearly impossible for the knot to flip, making the transition from paying out to taking in ummmm....difficult.
So, if I were to try it again, I would look for some method to keep the biners apart from each other. I'm sure I could figure out a way to do this, but I'm not sure the rewards would be worth it.
(My experience, my opinion, ymmv)
I do wonder - there would appear to be two ways to rig the double rope munter on a single biner. One would be to have both involved in the same hitch, running in parallel. This would work, subject to rgold's point about the difficulty of independent rope control. The other way would be to form two independent hitches on the same biner. I have no recollection of trying this configuration, and don't know if it would work, work well, or be a disaster.
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GeneralZon
Feb 19, 2009, 2:21 PM
Post #57 of 73
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Hotpies wrote: I just stretch an unlubricated, ribbed condom over my break hand at each belay. They're super light, and the friction is absolutely amazing. They tend to get chewed after just a couple of lowers or a big catch, so be sure to bring a few. I would use gloves, but I'm all about versatility in gear.
Typically, I would think this was a joke, but by the looks of your avatar, I think you are freaking serious. 
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lemon_boy
Feb 19, 2009, 3:47 PM
Post #58 of 73
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hey navychick,
i've been climbing since you were sh!tt!ng your diaper, or longer. i climb more in a year than you probably will in a lifetime. you live in hawaii, there's not much multi-pitch in hawaii. your little story about the 5.13 climber is pretty weak. here's a better story for you.
my partner and i were climbing a (gasp!) multi-pitch FA. i was belaying redirected through the anchor and standing on a small ledge. when he got to the ledge, i was in the process of handing the rack over when the hole ledge blew out and we both fell on the anchor. i was tied in direct with the rope, but with some slack so i could move around on the ledge. he had some slack in his end of the rope and wasn't tied in directly.
when the ledge blew, i dropped about 3' and he dropped about 6', but i still held the fall with one hand while taking the gear sling off my shoulder with the other. and i wasn't even wearing any gloves!!!!
focus on grinding good belay habits into your system (ie hand positioning, full-time preparedness, etc) and not on worrying whether you should wear a glove or not. michael jackson wears a glove, you shouldn't.
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qtm
Feb 19, 2009, 6:39 PM
Post #59 of 73
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In reply to: The other way would be to form two independent hitches on the same biner.
One thing I noticed when using two munters on a single biner is that they need to be tied mirroring each other; if you tie them both the same way, the two ropes run opposite ways where they meet, generating friction. If the knots are tied mirroring each other, then both ropes run the same way where they meet.
I didn't even think of using separate biners. I think if I had to, I would have clipped one to the leg loop as well just to keep them from locking up.
(This post was edited by qtm on Feb 19, 2009, 6:44 PM)
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cracklover
Feb 19, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #60 of 73
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qwert wrote: adatesman wrote: Thank goodness for archive.org.... I managed to track down a copy there. I'll split it up into several pieces sometime soon and put it up on RC somewhere for safe keeping. Looks like you're right and it shows palms up, which I find quite uncomfortable. Maybe its about what you have grown up with, but i would guess you are doing something wrong, if palms up is uncomfortable. Albeit it looks like one, the TRE works different than a plate, so unlike with a plate the brake strand has to be above the device (just like with a munter). At least for me, it is much more comfortable not to always have to switch the brake hand position when giving out slack.
A minor FYI for TRE users: I commonly use doubles technique on the Mammut Genesis with the TRE. I use palm-up, and find it quite comfortable. I don't wear gloves to belay, but due to tendon problems, I usually have taped fingers, which allows me to catch the rope between my fingers (as one typically does with doubles technique), without rubbing the skin off. Anyway, my point is that palm up technique works great.
But this brings up a point that's more relevant to everyone who uses doubles technique: In order to properly be able to feed rope out and take it in, on individual strands, you need to work out a system that splits the rope strands in your brake hand so that you can deal with them individually. For most, this means pinching one strand between a couple fingers, and pinching the other with the thumb.
Whatever your method - and this is the important part - you won't get as much friction when you have to catch a fall as you would if you were gripping a single rope right through the middle of your palm. Because of this, you must use a device that you are sure will help provide enough friction. In this case, clearly USNavy has found that this is not true for him. This boils down to Dingus' post - if your belay doesn't work, there's something wrong with it.
For me, the solution is the TRE. But you need to find a solution that works for you.
GO
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billcoe_
Feb 19, 2009, 6:56 PM
Post #61 of 73
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lemon_boy wrote: ...your little story about the 5.13 climber is pretty weak. here's a better story for you. my partner and i were climbing a (gasp!) multi-pitch FA. i was belaying redirected through the anchor and standing on a small ledge. when he got to the ledge, i was in the process of handing the rack over when the hole ledge blew out and we both fell on the anchor. i was tied in direct with the rope, but with some slack so i could move around on the ledge. he had some slack in his end of the rope and wasn't tied in directly. when the ledge blew, i dropped about 3' and he dropped about 6', but i still held the fall with one hand while taking the gear sling off my shoulder with the other. and i wasn't even wearing any gloves!!!! focus on grinding good belay habits into your system (ie hand positioning, full-time preparedness, etc) and not on worrying whether you should wear a glove or not. michael jackson wears a glove, you shouldn't.
That would have been tragic had the ledge popped as he was coming up 2nd. Damn hairy story!
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marc801 wrote: billcoe_ wrote: ...Twin rope technique means you are clipping every other piece, ......double rope technique which is clipping both ropes to each piece,... You've got those terms reversed.
Dohh, thank you! That wasn't the first and I suspect it won't be the last time. I know what I mean even if it is assbackwarks....
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elcapinyoazz
Feb 19, 2009, 7:55 PM
Post #62 of 73
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Probably the biggest factor is that the rope is super slippery from the coating.
I don't know about yours in particular because I don't own one. But I've had a couple Sterlings in the 9.8ish range that were hard to hold locked off without wanting to creep until they got a few dozen pitches on them.
If it's a big issue for you and you're not using them for rope drag reduction purposes on wandering terrain, just use them as twins until the coating wears off and they're less slippery. Voila, problem solved without extra biners, gloves, and 9 pages of lab geek wankery.
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qwert
Feb 22, 2009, 4:56 PM
Post #63 of 73
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bill413 wrote: ... So, if I were to try it again, I would look for some method to keep the biners apart from each other. I'm sure I could figure out a way to do this, but I'm not sure the rewards would be worth it. ...
Unfortunately i dont have the book here at the moment, and i am not completely shure how it was done. Maybe i will search for it when i am back home in a few weeks.
qwert
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steady_climbing
Feb 22, 2009, 5:14 PM
Post #64 of 73
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I climb with 8.4mm Half Ropes quite often. If you are having a problem with 9.1mm ropes slipping through a new Reverso there is a serious flaw in your belay technique (I beleive this was stated earlier). Maybe you should be a bit more attentive. I have not had even the slightest slip with half ropes considerably smaller and, I was using the same belay device..
As far as the Munter goes..... Mirror the knots as stated earlier, adn ensure your using a lare HMS Biner. This is common practice here in the Mountains and works as well as any belay device.
WTF would you climb with half ropes in Hawaii?
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qwert
Mar 10, 2009, 12:31 PM
Post #65 of 73
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I have found the illustration on how to belay with double ropes on munter hitches:
Its from the german book "Alpin- Lehrplan Band 2, Felsklettern Sportklettern
I dont know if it is practicable, but seems like a way to do it.
qwert
(This post was edited by qwert on Mar 10, 2009, 12:33 PM)
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Munter double rope.jpg
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joeforte
Mar 10, 2009, 11:06 PM
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I don't like how the top biner is tri-loaded off it's main axis in that picture. If it were to fail, the whole system fails. I know that the chances of a force high enough to break it are slim, but there is no reason to intentionally set up this single point of failure. A similar, more redundant system could be set up using a sling instead of a carabiner.
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catbird_seat
Mar 11, 2009, 5:13 AM
Post #67 of 73
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A lot of posters have failed to understand the OP was not using his double biners initially. He is now and it is helping a lot.
Bill needs to update his double rope terminology. Today we say "Twin Rope" technique when we clip both ropes to every piece of protection. We say "Half Rope" technique when we refer to alternate clipping.
I am a bit surprised that no one (to my knowledge)has offered a pretty obvious bit of advice. The Beal Joker is rated Twin as well as Half. The OP has the option of using it both ways. He can use it initially as a twin when the fall factor is high. He can then switch to Half rope technique later when the fall factor decreases. As a twin he'd have twice as much stopping power.
Naturally you would never go back to Twin rope technique after being in Half Rope mode, as it is not safe. If you are sport climbing, and clipping bolts you are not worried about impact force on your gear. In trad climbing if you are worried about the higher impact force of twin technique, use a screamer on the first one or two pieces until you switch to half technique.
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vegastradguy
Mar 11, 2009, 5:17 AM
Post #68 of 73
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catbird_seat wrote: A lot of posters have failed to understand the OP was not using his double biners initially. He is now and it is helping a lot.
actually, he was using two carabiners initially- the need for them, though, is still suspect at this point.
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catbird_seat
Mar 11, 2009, 5:21 AM
Post #69 of 73
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As I understand it, he wasn't using them both on the belay loop. It wouldn't work properly otherwise.
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vegastradguy
Mar 11, 2009, 6:33 AM
Post #70 of 73
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catbird_seat wrote: As I understand it, he wasn't using them both on the belay loop. It wouldn't work properly otherwise.
true- he was using them initially, just not correctly.
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dingus
Mar 12, 2009, 10:02 PM
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catbird_seat wrote: Naturally you would never go back to Twin rope technique after being in Half Rope mode, as it is not safe.
I've heard people say this for years - I don't believe it. I think its a bugaboo.
I've climbed halfs as twins for two decades and a little internet 'conventional wisdom' just doesn't do it for me.
Got proof?
Cheers
DMT
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vegastradguy
Mar 13, 2009, 5:56 AM
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dingus wrote: catbird_seat wrote: Naturally you would never go back to Twin rope technique after being in Half Rope mode, as it is not safe. I've heard people say this for years - I don't believe it. I think its a bugaboo. I've climbed halfs as twins for two decades and a little internet 'conventional wisdom' just doesn't do it for me. Got proof? Cheers DMT
i think that the concern is going back to clipping both ropes partway up a pitch after you've alternated clips for some distance- the theory goes that during a fall, the ropes will run at different speed, subjecting them to glazing or other possible damage.
i'm not sure how much stock i put in this, though- but then, i'm not one of the smart, engineering/physics/math type fellows on this site, i'm just a gear whore!
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dingus
Mar 13, 2009, 1:44 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: dingus wrote: catbird_seat wrote: Naturally you would never go back to Twin rope technique after being in Half Rope mode, as it is not safe. I've heard people say this for years - I don't believe it. I think its a bugaboo. I've climbed halfs as twins for two decades and a little internet 'conventional wisdom' just doesn't do it for me. Got proof? Cheers DMT i think that the concern is going back to clipping both ropes partway up a pitch after you've alternated clips for some distance- the theory goes that during a fall, the ropes will run at different speed, subjecting them to glazing or other possible damage. i'm not sure how much stock i put in this, though- but then, i'm not one of the smart, engineering/physics/math type fellows on this site, i'm just a gear whore!
Yup, that's the theory.....
I'd be open to the results of controlled testing and that German organization may have done it, quien sabe, I don't read German.
DMT
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