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socalclimber
Feb 20, 2009, 2:25 PM
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I'm find this reliance on gear and middle marks beguiling. Welcome to rock climbing, please check brain at the gate.....
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raingod
Feb 20, 2009, 3:35 PM
Post #52 of 127
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"Go easy on him. He's a beginner"
All the more reason to be hard on him when he is doing something stupid.
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socalclimber
Feb 20, 2009, 4:01 PM
Post #53 of 127
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What's scary is the frequency of these kinds of accidents. What's even more interesting is that we now have been graced with a "Accident and Incident Analysis" forum so we can do an "in depth analysis" of what went wrong.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Feb 20, 2009, 4:06 PM)
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neuroshock
Feb 20, 2009, 5:16 PM
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Sorry to hear that Mal. Unfortunately it's not limited to just the Ice Park.
Last year I was at Starved Rock SP in Illinois. Tonti was in decent shape, though fragile on the left due to trickling/dripping water, making the available climbing a little narrower. This is a formation that can be accessed from above to set up topropes. There were already 2 ropes set for TR on the formation, which is all that could safely fit, and people were actively climbing them.
A third party decides to set up a line right between the existing two and while people are still climbing they decide to rap in. Since we were below, we had no idea that they were doing so until they threw a rope down. The morons then ignore calls to stop and then don't even rap in slowly and "walk down the face" but rather take large pushes off while zinging down the line 10' at a time. When their crampons hit the face of the formation it showers climbers and belayers alike with medium-sized chunks of ice.
They didn't want to wait until the other parties got done climbing first. It wasn't until I and a couple of others got more rude to them that they halted (all but 1 of their party had rapped in by then) and they eventually left.
-Mike
(This post was edited by neuroshock on Feb 20, 2009, 5:18 PM)
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bkalaska
Feb 20, 2009, 6:11 PM
Post #55 of 127
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TIE A FUCKING KNOT IN THE ENDS! Problem solved. Do it EVERY time you can't see the bottom. What is so hard about using a system and sticking to it. Having and sticking with a system is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to make sure you climb safe. Be open to new ideas, but don't change a system on the fly, break it in slowly and in a controlled environment.
(This post was edited by bkalaska on Feb 20, 2009, 6:16 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Feb 20, 2009, 6:43 PM
Post #56 of 127
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bkalaska wrote: TIE A FUCKING KNOT IN THE ENDS! Problem solved. Do it EVERY time you can't see the bottom. What is so hard about using a system and sticking to it. Having and sticking with a system is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to make sure you climb safe. Be open to new ideas, but don't change a system on the fly, break it in slowly and in a controlled environment.
Have you not seen the reasons noted above for why you wouldn't tie knots? I'm not saying he shouldn't have in this circumstance, but there are circumstances when you wouldn't.
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cracklover
Feb 20, 2009, 7:12 PM
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All of us have assumptions we make about our gear. It's part of climbing. Both Pierce and the several people who have died made a false assumption - one which was, apparently, based on the belief that the rope markings meant what they had always thought they meant. Could you not make such an error? I know I could! Maybe not that exact error, since I know about these ropes (I actually own one) but perhaps I could make an error like it.
For example, I know there used to be on the market a screw-gate biner that screwed the other way - rather than going up over the nose, it went down over the bend on the other side. If I were climbing with someone else's rack and didn't know any better, could I mistakenly unlock a biner when I thought I was locking it? There's certain a chance I wouldn't notice!
My point is - whether or not you, yourself, could have made this particular error, I hope you see that we're all conditioned by the experiences we've had. What I mean is that we must operate under the assumptions of what we've come to know. And if something changes without our noticing it, it'll bite you, or me, in the ass, and that's a fact.
This is not about thinking versus not thinking. That is an overly simplistic way of describing the situation. In reality, this is about making the assumption that the gear we're using will perform as we expect it to perform. No different than you or I do every day we go climbing.
Sure, in most cases, I have methods that will keep me safe even if one or two things go awry. But not always. Sometimes the margin of safety is pretty thin. And at those times, if I go and do something stupid, it could ABSOLUTELY be me that gets the chop next time. And if at just that moment, someone gives me a tool that looks like a tool I know, but is subtley but radically different - like this rope was for these climbers, that could make the difference between life and death.
So, yeah, knowledge and thinking is power. But to think that you couldn't be fooled by a tool that looks like one you know, is just hubris.
Part of the reason why I mourn for those climbers who mistook the end mark for the middle mark is that I know they made a mistake not too different from one I could have made. Definitely one of those "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" moments.
And that sadness for the fallen climbers is what makes me so adamant that these end marks need to go.
Cheers,
GO
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socalclimber
Feb 20, 2009, 7:22 PM
Post #58 of 127
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Snicker..... This wouldn't be directed at me would it???? 
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Gmburns2000
Feb 20, 2009, 8:57 PM
Post #60 of 127
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acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I'm not saying he shouldn't have in this circumstance, but there are circumstances when you wouldn't. How about: "Always tie knots in the end of your rope and if you think they might get stuck, don't throw them, carry them down with you." Is there a circumstance when there would be a problem carrying your ropes? 
I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure a scenario could come up where you'd need your hands to rap and negotiate the terrain.
I don't disagree that this would be an excellent approach, though.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 20, 2009, 9:11 PM
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acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure a scenario could come up where you'd need your hands to rap and negotiate the terrain. By "carry" I mean butterfly the rope and put it in a basket-hitched sling on the side of your harness. Both hands are free to do whatever you normally do. I use this technique more often than I throw the rope. I'm an autoblock kind of guy, too. 
I'm not familiar with this technique, but one of my main partners told me recently that she wanted to practice more of this sort of thing this summer.
I'm more of a visual person, so if you have pics of what you mean then that would be appreciated.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 20, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Thanks, that's pretty clear.
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acorneau
Feb 20, 2009, 9:33 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Thanks, that's pretty clear.
You're quite welcome. Glad I can be helpful every once in a while!
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cracklover
Feb 20, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #66 of 127
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acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure a scenario could come up where you'd need your hands to rap and negotiate the terrain. By "carry" I mean butterfly the rope and put it in a basket-hitched sling on the side of your harness. Both hands are free to do whatever you normally do. I use this technique more often than I throw the rope. I'm an autoblock kind of guy, too.
I often use the rope-basket when it's windy and/or the rock looks likely to be a rope-eater. But it's slower. Using an autoblock when you're rapping is also slower. Doing two things all the time that both slow you down may someday bite you in the ass (say you have 10 raps to do, and fading light).
Just saying, there are always tradeoffs. One set of techniques is not always right.
GO
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jmvc
Feb 20, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #67 of 127
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Another approach is to flake the rope into a backpack if you're carrying one, and the ropes fit in it (I appreciate that this may well not be the case). Stopper knots recomended in this case.
Good luck to the guy that hit the ground, sounds like the injuries were less serious than they could have been, glad to hear that.
Talking about what you are conditioned to do, when I started climbing (sport climbing, still what I mostly do) I was taught to belay with a grigri. After quite a few months, a friend decided I should be trained in the use of an atcxp, clipped it to my harness and set off up the wall.
As he neared the first clip I caught myself sliding my brake hand up the rope to hold the atc, so it would not "catch". No problems ensued (the rope wasn't even clipped anyway), but I still scared myself (and have observed the 1rst rule of belaying with tube style devices religiously since).
A case of something stupid and in other circumstances dangerous being done following instincts that were sound when using a different set up.
No one ever saw this. I have confessed 
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donald949
Feb 20, 2009, 10:24 PM
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acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I'm more of a visual person, so if you have pics of what you mean then that would be appreciated. These are the best pix I can come up with at the moment. The basket hitched rope:  Ropes on a rappeller (not me):  You can also flake your rope into a bag and let that hang below you while you rap. If flaked well it should come right out with no problem. Good info in this Climbing mag Tech Tip: http://www.climbing.com/...echtips/ttalpine224/
Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together?
Don
(This post was edited by donald949 on Feb 20, 2009, 10:24 PM)
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angry
Feb 20, 2009, 10:29 PM
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donald949 wrote: acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I'm more of a visual person, so if you have pics of what you mean then that would be appreciated. These are the best pix I can come up with at the moment. The basket hitched rope: [image]http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/Alpine.224-2.gif[/image] Ropes on a rappeller (not me): [image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_njzoB-a7mjw/R8ctiXn2xVI/AAAAAAAAADA/-ERK-Yap66g/s320/rappel.jpg[/image] You can also flake your rope into a bag and let that hang below you while you rap. If flaked well it should come right out with no problem. Good info in this Climbing mag Tech Tip: http://www.climbing.com/...echtips/ttalpine224/Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together? Don
Holy half hour rappel Batman!!
Eff that!
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donald949
Feb 20, 2009, 10:32 PM
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angry wrote: donald949 wrote: acorneau wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I'm more of a visual person, so if you have pics of what you mean then that would be appreciated. These are the best pix I can come up with at the moment. The basket hitched rope: [image]http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/Alpine.224-2.gif[/image] Ropes on a rappeller (not me): [image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_njzoB-a7mjw/R8ctiXn2xVI/AAAAAAAAADA/-ERK-Yap66g/s320/rappel.jpg[/image] You can also flake your rope into a bag and let that hang below you while you rap. If flaked well it should come right out with no problem. Good info in this Climbing mag Tech Tip: http://www.climbing.com/...echtips/ttalpine224/Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together? Don Holy half hour rappel Batman!! Eff that!
Yea, I wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis, but in certain locations it might be a good tool to have.
Don
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acorneau
Feb 20, 2009, 10:37 PM
Post #72 of 127
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donald949 wrote: Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together? Don
The picture was just one I found on the web to show the basic idea.
I would normally put both ropes on my right side (since I'm right handed) and flake each on their own. You could flake both of them together, but they could get out of whack and make things messy.
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originalpmac
Feb 20, 2009, 11:24 PM
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I like the end marks, because it gives me a perfect idea of how much rope is left, which comes in handy when you are out on an uncertain multi-pitch climbs and your friend is getting out of hearing distance. I can tell for the most part how much is left without them, but I think it is useful.
Not personally a big fan of always tying knots in my rope. I AM a big fan of checking the ends I almost always use an aoutoblock on my leg loop, but not this time.
About the stuff you see in the ice park: I see a lot of stuff like that, all the time. We saw some people climbing without a helmet the other day. A friend of mine with some authority there told them to go to the shop and buy one. they left theirs in Boulder. They complained about the traffic. In Ouray. I saw a guy get dropped ten feet while being lowered, while the party right next to him was having a HARD time communicating about being lowered. apparently they don't know how to communicate through ropes tugs. There is a ton of goobers out their, and unfortunately I just added my name to the list
Cheers from a guy that decked
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donald949
Feb 20, 2009, 11:37 PM
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acorneau wrote: donald949 wrote: Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together? Don The picture was just one I found on the web to show the basic idea. I would normally put both ropes on my right side (since I'm right handed) and flake each on their own. You could flake both of them together, but they could get out of whack and make things messy.
Don
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acorneau
Feb 21, 2009, 2:11 AM
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donald949 wrote: What size runner do you use? 1 foot or 2 foot?
1 foot, 2 foot, Red foot, blue foot. No, just kidding.
2 foot sling is just fine for me. I could see a 1 foot sling being a little too tight around the bundle to let it pay out smoothly.
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