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cloudbreak
Nov 8, 2002, 6:15 PM
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I was reading in the guidebook for the Alabama Hills (Lone Pine) about a wall called The Loaf. 6 of the 7 routes are right around 150' high. The book says that "2 ropes and 2 belay devices to pass knots are necessary." They are not multi-pitch routes, but continuous sport routes, with one being 14 bolts. Can anyone shed some light on this 2 belay device thing.
Marc
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drector
Nov 8, 2002, 6:34 PM
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I'll take a guess just to see how it sounds...
Use a single belay device to belay at first. Belay the first rope out until you get to the end where the second rope is already tied. The second device can already be attached to the rope and the harness. It is attached on the second rope just past the knot. Switch to the scond device and do something with the first device, mainly take if off your harness. The knot is now between the belay device and the climber. As the climber lowers, the knot goes up and the climber goes down. I'd think that the knot would get stuck in the quick draws!
If this is done while the climber is at an easy stance then the first belay device can probably be removed from the rope easily. I'd have the climber tie in to the anchor with at least a single quickdraw and I would knot the rope below the second device to allow for a hands-free removal of the first device. or heck, leave it ont he rope to bang up the rock... NOPE, it would catch in the first QD. it must be removed.
So how does this sound? it's either pass the knot while belaying (how about using a figure 8 in "dangerous" mode to allow the knot to go through) or get a 300' rope.
Alternative: have the climber trail a second rope and rap off of the anchors, cleaning on the way down.
Dave
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wigglestick
Nov 8, 2002, 6:41 PM
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Ok, here is the deal. You only need one rope to climb the route, since it is only 150 feet high. Assuming you have a standard 50m or 60m rope. You will need 2 ropes to descend from the route and if you want to top rope the second you will need 2 ropes unless you belay the second from above. To belay the second from the ground tie the 2 ropes together and then start belaying as normal when you get to the knot put the rope on the other side of the knot through a second belay device and then continue belaying as normal. However, this is a lame system. Just belay the second from the top and have them drag a second rope and then both of you can rap from the anchors on 2 ropes.
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leaverbiner
Nov 15, 2002, 9:42 PM
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If you are using two gri-gri's I think that the first setup would work, but you would still probably get some nasty drag and snags as the knot tried to go through the draws! Definitely just trail a second rope and rap off. If you don't think you have the ability to climb it while dragging a second rope, then get to the top, anchor in directly pull your rope that you used to climb (do not untie from it) now drop the belay end down (should now be outside of the draws) and have the belayer tie a scond rope to it and haul all that crap back up to you.
Better yet, do as they did in Potrero, add a rap station half way up the climb so you can do the climb as a single pitch, and break the descent down into two raps.
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coclimber26
Nov 16, 2002, 6:26 PM
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Passing the knot is best done when you have a belay point instead of belaying off of your body. You tie a clovehitch about 8 feet from the end of the rope and clip it to your belay. The two ropes are joined with either a figure 8 or even better an overhand (euro death knot) to reduce drag over rocks. Belay as normal then when you see the rope getting close to the clove you must secure your climber. If using a munter hitch to belay you secure the climbiner with a munter mule knot. If using an atc make sure to tie the knot behind the belay device in the direction of brake. Next you take a piece of 6-7mm perlon 15-25ft long and make a 3 wrap prussik on the weighted line. Clip another locking biner to your belay point and with the prussik cord tie a munter hitch to the locker then secure it with a munter mule. Now untie the climbing rope securing knot and slowly lower the climber onto the prussik cord. The climbing rope should be unweighted behind the prussik cord. you can now pass the knot onto the climbers side of the belay device. to reweight the climbing rope unsecure the prussik cord and slowly reweight the climbing rope...sounds complicating but it works. If you belay with a munter hitch it is possible to pass an overhand knot Through an extra big locking carabiner by belaying normally.
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stevematthys
Nov 20, 2002, 2:28 AM
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Quote:The book says that "2 ropes and 2 belay devices to pass knots are necessary." They are not multi-pitch routes, but continuous sport routes, with one being 14 bolts.
why the hell would they not put up a belay station? no belay stance, big deal bolt a hanging belay. this may be a little harsh, but anyone that would do that is a feaking idiot, not only would there be rope drag from hell, but you can kiss communication goodbye. ok, i am done now,
[ This Message was edited by: stevematthys on 2002-11-19 18:28 ]
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tradguy
Nov 20, 2002, 5:09 PM
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Quote:why the hell would they not put up a belay station? no belay stance, big deal bolt a hanging belay. this may be a little harsh, but anyone that would do that is a feaking idiot, not only would there be rope drag from hell, but you can kiss communication goodbye. ok, i am done now
No point. It's shorter than 1 rope length, so why bother messing around with an extra belay station? 150' is 1 pitch, and unless the route wanders or has big ledges, there should not be any rope drag issues, so splitting it into 2 pitches is dumb.
The simple solution, as stated above, is to have the leader trail a second rope. The better solution is to get a 100 m (330 ft) x 9 mm rope, tie in to the middle, lead it twin (ie both ropes clipped to every piece), clip the anchors, pull one end up, thread the anchors, untie, and rap clean the draws. You now would have a top rope hung and no knots to worry about.
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cloudbreak
Nov 20, 2002, 5:23 PM
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We did exactly what was stated above. It was lead as normal, trailing the second rope. Clip the anchors, double fisherman the two ropes, double rope rapel....very simple. The only awkward part was the two belay devices to pass the knot, but was simple do as well.
Marc
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wigglestick
Nov 20, 2002, 5:28 PM
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Please explain to me why you had to pass a knot if you dragged a second rope. With 400 feet of rope you did something wrong if you had to pass a knot to rappel 150 feet.
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cloudbreak
Nov 20, 2002, 5:38 PM
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Ooooppps!! The passing of the knot was while TR'ing additional climbers after the lead climber had already descended. Sorry about the confusion! It's still early
Marc
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