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ladyscarlett
Feb 23, 2009, 11:35 PM
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I'm trying to understand something here...
I've seen some recent threads where someone is trying something new, (effectively a beginner, not climber, but in style, genre, discipline, etc) and opts to do it as complex as possible - and I don't understand. Why not start with the simple/basic first and move upward from there? Why work with a more complex system than you have to before you really have to?
For example, someone starting multipitch trad. There are a lot of factors. As a beginner multi pitch trad climber, why jump in increased complexity like double/twin/half rope techniques, when a simpler (though possibly more difficult) single rope technique has not been experienced?
After some research, I understand the situations these techniques would be used - safety and efficiency being key. However, there's so much to absorb in any beginner situation, so why would someone choose to skip the simple basics and go straight for the more complex? Yes, one might have to deal with a heavier rope, or intense rope drag, or even scare factor. But isn't experiencing these difficulties and learning the best way for you, as an individual, to cope all part of the process of moving past being a "beginner"?
Just trying to understand a different mentality...
Thanks in advance for the insight
always curious
ls
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dingus
Feb 23, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Some people are technoweinies and there's no getting around that.
But sometimes you take on a more complex system beause that's the one all your mates are using?
Naked free soloing would be about the simplest - you tried that much?
So yes.... and no... ?
DMT
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limeydave
Feb 23, 2009, 11:56 PM
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It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners.
The climbers who started out the hard way and actually stuck with the sport were generally quite bold as a result.
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yokese
Feb 24, 2009, 12:08 AM
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limeydave wrote: It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners.
Correct.
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swoopee
Feb 24, 2009, 12:33 AM
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limeydave wrote: It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners. The climbers who started out the hard way and actually stuck with the sport were generally quite bold as a result.
Double ropes??? Man, Goldline was a pain to manage without doubling it up. 
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johnwesely
Feb 24, 2009, 12:46 AM
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I get an odd sort of satisfaction from building complex anchors and setting goofy passive pro. I want to learn double ropes, but I feel like it would get messy on long pitches where communication is hard.
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ladyscarlett
Feb 24, 2009, 12:50 AM
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dingus wrote: Some people are technoweinies and there's no getting around that. But sometimes you take on a more complex system beause that's the one all your mates are using? Naked free soloing would be about the simplest - you tried that much? So yes.... and no... ? DMT
Ok, that makes sense, cause then it wouldn't BE the more complex system, but just the standard...
Enjoy the Naked Free Soloing, do you?! Although I can see why...there are so many nice views to enjoy when on a climbing trip...no?
Does half naked free soloing count?
nope, totally doesn't count.... though it should totally be added as an option for the ascent log...heh!
ls
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pfwein
Feb 24, 2009, 12:50 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: As a beginner multi pitch trad climber, why jump in increased complexity like double/twin/half rope techniques, when a simpler (though possibly more difficult) single rope technique has not been experienced?
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ladyscarlett
Feb 24, 2009, 12:52 AM
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limeydave wrote: It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners. The climbers who started out the hard way and actually stuck with the sport were generally quite bold as a result.
Well ok then, goes to show, no one is ever as HardCore as the people from The Beginning...interesting info though...
Off subject, but it's my thread, so I don't care...
I am definitely going to ask the buddies if I can practice these techniques
Something like the Double rope technique is used for zig zag pro, but how would it work over traverses? Or would something else be used?
ls
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patmay81
Feb 24, 2009, 12:55 AM
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pfwein wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: As a beginner multi pitch trad climber, why jump in increased complexity like double/twin/half rope techniques, when a simpler (though possibly more difficult) single rope technique has not been experienced? I don't think your example is a very good one. If it's "possibly more difficult," you've answered your own question. And as others have noted, many have started on doubles.
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ladyscarlett
Feb 24, 2009, 1:07 AM
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I feel like I should explain my thinking...
So a double rope technique may be more mentally difficult for a beginning pair to manage, for the reason that johnweasley mentions above. Please keep in mind Beginner Status meaning neither has prior experience with particular technique.
A single rope system might be physically more difficult for the leader to handle, (rope drag, etc), but probably nothing that the leader hasn't handled before.
So when the options are - dealing with a technique one has no experience with, or dealing with a difficulty (ie rope drag) that has been experienced, just at a more intense level, which would you (if you were a beginner surrounded by beginners) choose? Which choice would you advise a beginner pair/group to make?
But at the end, the point that many have started on doubles kind of invalidates my example... however the question still stands for other techniques besides multi pitch trad...
this is really helping me think this through and how I would approach learning new stuff...hmmmmm
ls
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devkrev
Feb 24, 2009, 1:11 AM
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If you aren't climbing pitches that aren't 150 feet long (or more) double ropes are just a pain....
wait....huh?
dev
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patmay81
Feb 24, 2009, 1:22 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: So when the options are - dealing with a technique one has no experience with, or dealing with a difficulty (ie rope drag) that has been experienced, just at a more intense level, which would you (if you were a beginner surrounded by beginners) choose? Which choice would you advise a beginner pair/group to make?
I'd never placed a cam before my first trad lead, I'd never clipped a bolt before my first spurt lead...
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scottek67
Feb 24, 2009, 2:08 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: dingus wrote: Some people are technoweinies and there's no getting around that. But sometimes you take on a more complex system beause that's the one all your mates are using? Naked free soloing would be about the simplest - you tried that much? So yes.... and no... ? DMT Ok, that makes sense, cause then it wouldn't BE the more complex system, but just the standard... Enjoy the Naked Free Soloing, do you?! Although I can see why...there are so many nice views to enjoy when on a climbing trip...no? Does half naked free soloing count? [IMG]http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww114/Lady_Scarlett/LoversLeap08sm.jpg[/IMG] nope, totally doesn't count.... though it should totally be added as an option for the ascent log...heh! ls
yes that is a nice view
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limeydave
Feb 24, 2009, 3:18 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: limeydave wrote: It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners. The climbers who started out the hard way and actually stuck with the sport were generally quite bold as a result. Well ok then, goes to show, no one is ever as HardCore as the people from The Beginning...interesting info though...
Personally I started the 'hard way', realized I was a wuss and climbed in the gym until sport climbing and bouldering were invented.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 24, 2009, 4:05 AM
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I am certainly very un-qualified to speak two two vs. one rope. I can, however, speak to the other question.
In reply to: Why work with a more complex system before you really have too?
One reason is that we naturally mimic the experts. You want to be an expert so you do what they do. They use two ropes, you use two ropes. They smoke prana, you smoke prana. Mimicry is one of the most fundamental learning tools.
The second reason is that everyone has experienced "beginner tool syndrome". You know, you buy the cheap tool for "beginners" and you think how hard something is. Then your expert friend lends you for one time her gear and you are blown away. Life is better. If only I had had the expert tool from the beginning. So next time, you swear to yourself, that you won't get stuck with the crummy beginner tool again.
Lather, rinse, repete
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ladyscarlett
Feb 24, 2009, 6:54 PM
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patmay81 wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: So when the options are - dealing with a technique one has no experience with, or dealing with a difficulty (ie rope drag) that has been experienced, just at a more intense level, which would you (if you were a beginner surrounded by beginners) choose? Which choice would you advise a beginner pair/group to make? I think I'd go with learning the new "technique" rather than deal with the extreme rope drag. rope drag sucks! The best way to learn is by doing, so just go for it, provided you have enough experience placing gear, leading, etc. I'd never placed a cam before my first trad lead, I'd never clipped a bolt before my first spurt lead...
This is a good good point, and something I forget, that doing is the best way to learn...I guess I was thinking of situations where the second have of your sentence (rgding experience) wouldn't apply.
If I had never lead belay someone ever, and was told that I would be belaying my equally inexperienced partner up a multipitch and will deal with two strands that must be fed out independently... well I would definitely learn fast...and that's the point.
And yes, as a beginner, I look to those who are more experienced for learning new stuff, I'm sure that most beginners do the same - valid point...
It's time for me to stop being such a wimp! Definitely going to try this new technique next time I go out though!
cheers!
ls
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Gmburns2000
Feb 24, 2009, 7:15 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: dingus wrote: Some people are technoweinies and there's no getting around that. But sometimes you take on a more complex system beause that's the one all your mates are using? Naked free soloing would be about the simplest - you tried that much? So yes.... and no... ? DMT Ok, that makes sense, cause then it wouldn't BE the more complex system, but just the standard... Enjoy the Naked Free Soloing, do you?! Although I can see why...there are so many nice views to enjoy when on a climbing trip...no? Does half naked free soloing count? nope, totally doesn't count.... though it should totally be added as an option for the ascent log...heh! ls
yeah, that works.
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j_ung
Feb 24, 2009, 7:35 PM
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yokese wrote: limeydave wrote: It wasn't so long ago when multi-pitch trad on double ropes was the way we started climbing as beginners. Correct.
I might argue that it was actually so long ago. 
Edit = spelling
(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 24, 2009, 7:36 PM)
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j_ung
Feb 24, 2009, 7:50 PM
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patmay81 wrote: pfwein wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: As a beginner multi pitch trad climber, why jump in increased complexity like double/twin/half rope techniques, when a simpler (though possibly more difficult) single rope technique has not been experienced? I don't think your example is a very good one. If it's "possibly more difficult," you've answered your own question. And as others have noted, many have started on doubles. This is a very valid point. doubles greatly SIMPLIFY a wandering route. I don't think experience has much to do with it. A better example would be a beginner trying to lead a wandering trad route, having no experience on a top rope.
Ninja please! Of course there are situations in which doubles are advantageous, but in terms of the knowledge you need to do either well, a single rope is always -- ALWAYS -- simpler. Rope management on long routes is a science, not an art. I don't think there's such a thing as natural talent for it.
LS, I understand your question and I don't think you should back off from it. Barring unusual circumstances, I think it's hands down a bad idea to jump straight into more complex systems when you haven't ever had to manage a single on multiple pitches. I absolutely agree with your basic premise. In most cases it makes far more sense to begin with a less technically demanding system and work up to it.
Of course, I'm also well aware that this is a personal choice. People should evaluate their goals and experience and do whatever the heck they think is best.
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pfwein
Feb 24, 2009, 8:38 PM
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j_ung wrote: Ninja please! Of course there are situations in which doubles are advantageous, but in terms of the knowledge you need to do either well, a single rope is always -- ALWAYS -- simpler.
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patmay81
Feb 24, 2009, 8:45 PM
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j_ung wrote: patmay81 wrote: pfwein wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: As a beginner multi pitch trad climber, why jump in increased complexity like double/twin/half rope techniques, when a simpler (though possibly more difficult) single rope technique has not been experienced? I don't think your example is a very good one. If it's "possibly more difficult," you've answered your own question. And as others have noted, many have started on doubles. This is a very valid point. doubles greatly SIMPLIFY a wandering route. I don't think experience has much to do with it. A better example would be a beginner trying to lead a wandering trad route, having no experience on a top rope. Ninja please! Of course there are situations in which doubles are advantageous, but in terms of the knowledge you need to do either well, a single rope is always -- ALWAYS -- simpler. Rope management on long routes is a science, not an art. I don't think there's such a thing as natural talent for it. LS, I understand your question and I don't think you should back off from it. Barring unusual circumstances, I think it's hands down a bad idea to jump straight into more complex systems when you haven't ever had to manage a single on multiple pitches. I absolutely agree with your basic premise. In most cases it makes far more sense to begin with a less technically demanding system and work up to it. Of course, I'm also well aware that this is a personal choice. People should evaluate their goals and experience and do whatever the heck they think is best.
that should be the end advice. If you are going to play around with a 'new' system (double ropes, multi-pitch climbing, simulclimbing...), do it on a route well below your abilities (5.easy). If you are going to push grades (5.hard), do it on a route without tricky gear placements or runnout bolts.
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bill413
Feb 24, 2009, 8:50 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: If I had never lead belay someone ever, and was told that I would be belaying my equally inexperienced partner up a multipitch and will deal with two strands that must be fed out independently... well I would definitely learn fast...and that's the point.
I usually climb with double ropes. But, when I'm taking someone who is new to multipitch, I go with a single rope. I figure that there is so much else for them to learn the first time or two out that the additional complexity would contribute to overload. After that, I'll switch back to doubles.
Double ropes can give you much higher drag than you can get with a single rope (try z-clipping both strands), create a real rat's nest at the belay station, and have all sorts of other complications. For me, the advantages outweigh all that, and I've learned (ahem, naturally by thinking it through with my superior intellect  ) to avoid the aforementioned problems.
If you're new to tradding, I think going single rope is good. Eventually, you'll be able to make your own decision as to whether to go double or not, and have the experience to be able to cope with a partner who climbs with either.
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ladyscarlett
Feb 24, 2009, 8:53 PM
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pfwein wrote: j_ung wrote: Ninja please! Of course there are situations in which doubles are advantageous, but in terms of the knowledge you need to do either well, a single rope is always -- ALWAYS -- simpler. OK, but then we're back to the naked free soloist example. Simpler does not always equal better. I think we all agree in principle: assuming the more complex system has at least some benefit over the simpler system, you need to make the cost/benefit analysis on a case-by-case basis.
given your experience and comfort level, which previous posts have reminded me.
naked free solo is simpler, but if one has no experience (please remember beginner status of all climbers involved), than it isn't simpler, for the psychological factors. In beginner situations, I think the psychological factors definitely play a part in the 'simplicity' or 'complexity' of a technique or system, and should be a major consideration, no?
ls
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