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skywalker
Nov 15, 2002, 7:58 PM
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This is a phenomena I'm yet to understand. As I flip through guide books of sport climbing areas I've noticed that often, the first ascent party is documented. For what purpose? I can understand this practice in big wall climbing where often times one needs beta from the first ascent party, ie. rack list, strategy, descent, problem spots, etc. But why would I care if John or Jane Doe did the first ascent of "Gorilla Turds" 5.10b 5 bolts? Can someone clear this up for me? It seems like someone is looking to get their ego stroked in some disturbing way. In response to the replies, I thank you. I appreciate the historical context of the sport as I've read of inspiring climbs since I was a wee bitty' child, however I'm looking for something beyond that. And those who feel its a trad vs. sport thing get over it! My concern is practices that are geared toward recognition of "effort and money spent" and the future of climbing for those that find that meaningless. Recently, there has been a boom in guidebook publication and those writting are seaching for history. Should we as a climbing community promote this self-mutilation? When I first started climbing, my friends and I scraped and clawed and pulled on slings and biners' to get up anything, including sport climbs (we never heard of the term). There was no guide book and no crowds and we knew little about the outside world of climbing. My golden era. The practice of FA's in an otherwise controversial sport works only to diminish the opportunity for future climbers to find their own adventure, regardless of style (sport,trad,etc.). Listing FA's, particularly in sport climbing where a Hilti and a couple of bucks can put you in written history, can only serve to stroke the ego and promote land closures for FA's 50 years from now. Leave the FA's in sport crags alone, please! If anyone feels different or has anything to add please do!!! [ This Message was edited by: skywalker on 2002-11-15 12:00 ] [ This Message was edited by: skywalker on 2002-11-18 23:33 ]
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fling
Nov 15, 2002, 8:19 PM
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Maybe for no other reason then to show some appreciation for the hard work in putting up a route for people to enjoy. I am grateful for those people who have spent time and money just so people like me can have more routes to enjoy..
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hugepedro
Nov 15, 2002, 8:53 PM
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I think there are several reasons for recording FAs. One is just a matter of maintaining climbing history. All first ascents in climbing are recorded, be they alpine, big wall, mountaineering, trad, sport, ice, whatever. Most climbers like to know who the first person to climb something was, regardless of what type of route it is. In sport climbing it's important to know who the FA is in case anyone wants to modify the route, in which case the consensus of the community and the permission of the FAist must be obtained.
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jds100
Nov 15, 2002, 11:03 PM
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I think the FA information is good to have to add an historical perspective to the area; it tells me when the route was established, and if I see the name of the FAer recur a number of times in a guidebook, then I gain a little knowledge about the development of the area. It also gives me something more to talk about if I meet the FAer than just, "Hey, Dude!" It can be pretty eye-opening (and, hopefully, humbling) to some folks who may think they're the greatest thing to come along in climbing, when they see how long ago a particular route was established, and especially if they meet the "old guy or gal" who put it up. [ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-11-15 15:04 ]
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shawkshaw
Nov 17, 2002, 6:50 AM
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The amount of time, money and work that goes into a sport climb is reason enough to record the FA details of the climb. I enjoy reading the history of crags and the details of the developers. If you climb enough routes put up by a person you can also start to get a feel for what sort of routes they establish. For instance they might like to space the bolts to add a bit of spice to a climb. so next time you see a route put up by them you can start to understand a little of what the climb may entail. although not always true obviously. steve
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therelic
Nov 17, 2002, 7:34 AM
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The FA is not always the person who put up the route. At Rattlesnake crag in Southern Oregon about 30 of the routes I put up are listed with another person at the FA. This is because he is the person who sent the information to the person writing the climbers guide for the area and he listed himself as the FA. I doubt this is unique to Southern Oregon crags. The point I am trying to make is books are sometimes wrong. A couple of the reasons for this are because some people don't consider the person who put in the route the FA. Some people consider the first person to redpoint the route as the FA. And some people when they see a chance to be listed as the FA will just go for it even if they had nothing to do with putting in the route and have never climbed it. Bill [ This Message was edited by: therelic on 2002-11-18 19:39 ]
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thomasribiere
Nov 17, 2002, 7:56 PM
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I think that in France we make the distinction between the person who opened/created the route and the person who make the FA.
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shawkshaw
Nov 19, 2002, 12:35 AM
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hang on. to claim a first acsent im pretty sure you need to redpoint it? other wise its not a clean ascent so cannot be calimed as an FA. steve
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kalcario
Nov 19, 2002, 1:08 AM
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He is referring to the difference between "opening" the route, which means cleaning, bolting and, uh, modifying it, and whoever is the first to point it. Believe it or not in Europe it's often not always the same person, because the sheer(no pun)labor involved in opening routes (and whole cliffs) takes so much time and effort that you are out of shape for hard redpointing. Plus no one really cares who did it first anyway, the question is, can you do it.
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caerbannog_rabbit
Nov 19, 2002, 1:22 AM
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i have a list of cool names for any future routes i put up (there is another thread on that) my point is that i dont care if i get recognition, i just want to name it. speaking of gorillas, theres a route called "gorilla tactics (5.12c) awesome name! [ This Message was edited by: caerbannog_rabbit on 2002-11-18 17:27 ]
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climbsomething
Nov 19, 2002, 2:31 AM
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What hugepedro said is great (here, I'll even reproduce it here for you ) Quote:In sport climbing it's important to know who the FA is in case anyone wants to modify the route, in which case the consensus of the community and the permission of the FAist must be obtained. Communication is what makes us civilized. It's good to know who the FAist was in case you want to modify the route- i.e., adding/replacing/removing bolts. Sport routes tend to get more traffic so this kind of route upkeep/modification is surely not uncommon. I don't think listing a sport FAist is any more of an ego stroke than listing a trad or alpine FAist. I think statements like that are really just getting at the heinous, age-old "sport vs. trad" war... let's not go there, ok?
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bigsauce
Nov 19, 2002, 2:44 AM
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Amen to that brother!
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therealdeal
Nov 19, 2002, 3:26 AM
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I like the Euro method! Who cares who did the FA, its more important to recognize the vision and the effort of a new line. Even when its some earth shattering FA like Realization; as much as I respect Chris it seems that send would have never happened unless someone else (Patrick Edlinger??) took the effort. It seems like none of the young strong climbers (except Tommy) bother to put up routes, its really too bad. I never tag my routes unless they are not finished, i.e. safe. I just don't really see the purpose. I mean red signifies caution, right!
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therealdeal
Nov 19, 2002, 3:26 AM
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I like the Euro method! Who cares who did the FA, its more important to recognize the vision and the effort of a new line. Even when its some earth shattering FA like Realization; as much as I respect Chris it seems that send would have never happened unless someone else (Patrick Edlinger??) took the effort. It seems like none of the young strong climbers (except Tommy) bother to put up routes, its really too bad. I never tag my routes unless they are not finished, i.e. safe. I just don't really see the purpose. I mean red signifies caution, right!
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skywalker
Nov 19, 2002, 7:25 AM
Post #15 of 23
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In response to the replies, I thank you. I appreciate the historical context of the sport as I've read of inspiring climbs since I was a wee bitty' child, however I'm looking for something beyond that. And those who feel its a trad vs. sport thing get over it! My concern is practices that are geared toward recognition of "effort and money spent" and the future of climbing for those that find that meaningless. Recently, there has been a boom in guidebook publication and those writting are seaching for history. Should we as a climbing community promote this self-mutilation? When I first started climbing, my friends and I scraped and clawed and pulled on slings and biners' to get up anything, including sport climbs (we never heard of the term). There was no guide book and no crowds and we knew little about the outside world of climbing. My golden era. The practice of FA's in an otherwise controversial sport works only to diminish the opportunity for future climbers to find their own adventure, regardless of style (sport,trad,etc.). Listing FA's, particularly in sport climbing where a Hilti and a couple of bucks can put you in written history, can only serve to stroke the ego and promote land closures for FA's 50 years from now. Leave the FA's in sport crags alone, please! If anyone feels different or has anything to add please do!!!
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rockprodigy
Nov 19, 2002, 4:41 PM
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I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying that . Listing FA information in the guidebook takes away from the adventure of going sport climbing? Or, are you saying 2. Listing FA information in guidebooks encourages people to go do more FA's, thereby limiting the potential for future generations? If so, I respond: 1. Are you out of your friggin' mind? There is NO adventure in sport climbing...that's why it's called sport climbing. If you want adventure, go to the climbing gym, there's no FA information there. 2. Although I agree in principal that rock (like all natural resources) is a finite resource on this planet, I must disagree that we will run out of climbs in 50 years. I don't know where you live, but here in Utah I would estimate that less than 1 tenth of one percent of the available rock has been developed. There's plenty to go around, and the few people that are inspired by FA information to go out and bolt a route should be given a pat on the back, not chastised as ego-maniacs.
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edgelounger
Nov 21, 2002, 8:33 PM
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yeah, and the ocean will never get polluted... you might live in an area with lots of new rock (and i might too) but thinking we will never run out is exactly the type of thinking that has us sucking major environmental ass right now! i agree with skywalker. Screw FA names. it just promotes more bolts. go to the gym if you want to practice your sport. bolts are a mostly selfish enterprise some with benifits for the masses. access issues and sport climbing go hand in hand. this has been proven over and over again. the access fund was not needed until the power drill was introduced to climbing. don't get me wrong, history is important but what is so historical about bob rappeling down yet another rock and placing bolts 6 feet apart. Bob is no hero, he is a construction worker and he needs to stop grid bolting all the nice pretty cliffs, attracting the masses, and leaving for the next "unknown" area before the access issues start...
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shawkshaw
Nov 22, 2002, 2:25 AM
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you won't stop sport climbs by stoping FA names being recorded! yes some area are over bolted but not all. some areas bolts are nicely spaced (expodentially off the deck) and only where necesary. i hope your not using chalk when you climb because that often looks worse than bolts and often can NOT be removed by scrubbing. steve [ This Message was edited by: shawkshaw on 2002-11-21 19:24 ]
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rockprodigy
Nov 22, 2002, 3:39 PM
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"access issues and sport climbing go hand in hand" That's a good point, when applied generally. The Sawtooths in Idaho have no sport climbing, yet it's one of the biggest access problems in the U.S.. The biggest has to be Hueco...few bolts and no FA info in that guide. Access issues have increased with increased numbers of climbers as a result of the boom of the 80's giving people more money and free time to go outside and try new sports. Bolting happened at the same time, but I disagree that it was the CAUSE of that. The idea that someone would bolt a route, just to get in a guidebook is ludicrous to anyone who has bolted a route. Just curious, have you ever bolted a route? If a climbing area has a mix of sport and trad routes, should we just include the FA of the trad routes?
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skywalker
Nov 26, 2002, 7:57 AM
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Rockprodegy, etc. I have seen climbers' initials and give ratings to climbs etched on small rocks at Indian Creek at the base of climbs. My reaction: "Oh this is M.C.5.11c. I think it means More Closure at Mile Marker 5.11 C road." Even in trad climbing there is a FA ego phenomena. If it is simply to give a heads up, why do we need the M.C.? Yes, I have placed bolts on lead and it brought a tear to my eye that I couldn't proceed off my tricam, Lowe Ball, or RP.
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rockprodigy
Nov 26, 2002, 3:18 PM
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So I guess you did that route to get your name in the guidebook, right? Isn't that your argument? Because, if it weren't for the future glory of your name in the guidebook, you would have just left the route for someone else who didn't need to add a bolt, right? This is your argument as I understand it, please correct me if I'm getting this wrong.
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roninthorne
Nov 28, 2002, 1:59 PM
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“… a Hilti and a couple of bucks earns you a place in History.” Some common misconceptions here, easily addressed. One- a Hilti cannot earn you anything. It is a tool. The uses to which you put it can and will affect the general climbing community’s perception of you, of that there is no doubt. Derision and condemnation are just as much a possibility as accolades, there, unless you’ve done your time, paid your dues, and know your deal Two- a “couple of bucks” will buy you one bolt or hanger, take your pick. True, if you’re willing to make the investment and chase the deals, you can find both for less, but let’s look at the value to you, Joe Climber, and what it would cost you to just go out and buy the stuff to put up a six bolt sport route with anchors. First, you need eight bolts, six hangers, and two top anchors. A pair of four inch 5-piece Rawl bolts is about $5.00, and then six more three inchers would be about another $15.00. That’s $20.00, so far. Now, Fixe ring anchors are about $8.00/pair, and camouflaged bolt hangers are something like $2.50 apiece, and that’s another $23.00. Carbide-tipped drill bits are $8.00, and you’ll probably be lucky to get all eight holes out of the same bit, but we’ll say you will, so lonely one drill bit brings us up to $31.00, or a total so far of $51.00, a bit more than “a couple of bucks”. That’s the “hard” numbers part, the inescapable cost of the required hardware. Then comes the subjective part, debatable in value/price but undeniable in impact. New crags are so seldom within easy driving distance, so let’s say $10.00 for gas, and we’ll say you’re a frugal climber so grub and brews for the weekend it’ll take to put up your new line and redpoint it will only add another $10.00 (you’re eatin’ ramen and oatmeal and washing them down with Miller, maybe splurging on an apple or- ohhhh- a PowRBar. Running total: 71.00. And you haven’t even gotten on the rock, yet. Having worked in the field of concert and industrial rigging, I can attest to the fact that nothing else in the world comes closer to the demands of new routing. You are suspended in midair, working with equipment and the necessity of dropping nothing, trying to do quality work while maintaining your safety consciousness. Professional riggers make over 20.00 an hour. Since climbers could be classified as semi-professional riggers, we’ll start you out at junior rigger pay and make it $17.50. One morning of rapping and scrubbing, cleaning loose rock, toproping and rechecking clip stances… say four hours. That’s $70.00 worth of labor. If you bolt ground up, it’ll cost ya more, ‘cause that’s hazardous duty, but we’ll say you rap. Even rap bolting takes some time, and placing eight bolts with anchors and hangers will take at least two hours. Another $35.00. As you step up to attempt the FA, grand total estimated value for your route is now $176.00. Guess you better have used that Hilti correctly in your quest for fame, or your place in history will be in the dictionary, beside the definition for the word “Poser”. In the end, if I clean it and bolt it, and invest all the time and effort to dream it into existence and make it a climb, then I want.. frod that, I deserve credit, when someone starts making a list of names and dates. If you don’t want sport Fas recorded, fine… stay off bolted routes, then you won’t have to read the FA credits in the guidebook. As for your assertion that listing sport FAs leads to closures; Sorry, nice try but wrong answer. Irresponsible use, uncontrolled impact and failure to maintain trail and community relations are what lead to crag closures, skywalker.
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powers
Nov 28, 2002, 3:15 PM
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well said ronin. that about sums it up! [ This Message was edited by: powers on 2002-11-28 07:17 ]
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