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mar_leclerc


Mar 14, 2009, 1:56 PM
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Protecting hard laybacks?
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I've been climbing for a few years but I have a question.
There is this route near my place that is a diagonal splitter crack up a steep face. It is normally climbed by laybacking left (good edge) and fighting the barn door. It isn't too hard ( I can TR it no problem) but I can't see into the crack to place pro. Any tips on how to position yourself to place and inspect pro on such a climb?


blueeyedclimber


Mar 14, 2009, 2:59 PM
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Re: [mar_leclerc] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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mar_leclerc wrote:
I've been climbing for a few years but I have a question.
There is this route near my place that is a diagonal splitter crack up a steep face. It is normally climbed by laybacking left (good edge) and fighting the barn door. It isn't too hard ( I can TR it no problem) but I can't see into the crack to place pro. Any tips on how to position yourself to place and inspect pro on such a climb?

A lot of this is experience with knowing your cam sizes compared to your hands/fingers. I have placed pieces blind plenty of times. I would rather not and when I get a chance I try to visually check, but being able to know the size without totally seeing into the crack is a good skill to have. That just comes from experience.

Aside from that, if you are laybacking a hard section, can you look at the section from the ground or from a stance and tell what size it is? You can then get that size ready on the front of your harness. Or is there any chance of getting into a position to be able to look into the crack? I often do this, but it is often pumpy to do, so you want to do it efficiently and quick.

Josh


mar_leclerc


Mar 14, 2009, 3:16 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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Those are some good ideas. Next time I'm on it I want to see if I can pivot from the layback into a more staight on finger lock to place pro. Seeing as the crack flares in a few spots just guessing based on how big it feels would be pretty sketch on this one.


kane_schutzman


Mar 14, 2009, 3:26 PM
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Re: [mar_leclerc] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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Be careful, I guess if you can do it on TR just find places to place gear before you lead it. My first lead fall was on Fingers in a lightsocket, its just like your describing. Pulled a piece, because I was unknowingly placing too small of gear at the top. You can always mark where you wanna place gear with chalk. This isnt all that fucking complicatedSly


Partner devkrev


Mar 14, 2009, 4:18 PM
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Re: [kane_schutzman] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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kane_schutzman wrote:
Be careful, I guess if you can do it on TR just find places to place gear before you lead it. My first lead fall was on Fingers in a lightsocket, its just like your describing. Pulled a piece, because I was unknowingly placing too small of gear at the top. You can always mark where you wanna place gear with chalk. This isnt all that fucking complicatedSly

Great style you have.

I'd say if you are worried about protecting it, wait until you are stronger.


dev


rock_ranger


Mar 14, 2009, 4:38 PM
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Re: [kane_schutzman] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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kane_schutzman wrote:
You can always mark where you wanna place gear with chalk. This isnt all that fucking complicatedSly

Dean...is that you?...


sungam


Mar 14, 2009, 5:29 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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Sometimes I place the gear blind, then "sneak a peak" for just a second by pulling in. It's too strenuous to do with just one arm (while trying to place gear) but you can often get away with pulling in with both arms to check the piece isn't all wonkified or anything.


kane_schutzman


Mar 14, 2009, 6:12 PM
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Re: [devkrev] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue


Tipton


Mar 14, 2009, 6:19 PM
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Re: [kane_schutzman] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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kane_schutzman wrote:
My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue

Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.


sungam


Mar 14, 2009, 6:29 PM
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Re: [Tipton] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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Tipton wrote:
kane_schutzman wrote:
My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue

Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.
BAM.
Korekt.
Or maybe you should just bolt it?
Wouldn't want to risk your health, and coloured bolts aren't that obvious, either.


moose_droppings


Mar 14, 2009, 7:15 PM
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Re: [sungam] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Tipton wrote:
kane_schutzman wrote:
My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue

Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.
BAM.
Korekt.
Or maybe you should just bolt it?
Wouldn't want to risk your health, and coloured bolts aren't that obvious, either.

Double BAM!


OuchWink


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 14, 2009, 7:21 PM
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Re: [mar_leclerc] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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Mar:

Since you said you’re a relatively new climber, it might not be clear as to what is really being discussed. Tick marks are the chalk marks you make on toprope to decide where to place gear. To do so is generally regarded as unsightly. Very déclassé.

A more important point is that you mention the crack rises diagonally. Gear placements, especially camming devices, behave less reliably in such cracks since when one falls, it is at an angle to the crack, which places a twisting force on the gear. The best way to find out about this is to place some gear in such a crack, while either standing on the ground or on toprope, and jump on a sling attached to the gear.


Cheers,

Rob.calm
_______________________________________________________
‘Tis better to have trad and failed then not to have trad at all.


mar_leclerc


Mar 14, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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I've been leading trad for a couple years. I know what tick marks are, I will confess to making such a mark when I was working on the FA of a hard climb where I had to hang one handed in a roof and place a cam...

i will try out different placements like you suggested.


mar_leclerc


Mar 14, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Re: [kane_schutzman] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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kane_schutzman wrote:
My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue

The route is not 'shitty'... it if at least a 3 star climb FYI


kane_schutzman


Mar 14, 2009, 9:34 PM
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Re: [sungam] Protecting hard laybacks? [In reply to]
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The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.


(This post was edited by kane_schutzman on Mar 14, 2009, 9:37 PM)


Tipton


Mar 14, 2009, 9:46 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote:
The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.

You'll go far.


rschap


Mar 14, 2009, 10:02 PM
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One of my first trad partners went to some guide school where they pounded in to his head to never lie back. So when I climbed with him we took every crack head on even back leaning dihedrals. It and he was a pain in the ass but it did keep me out of trouble a couple of times. I still think there are cases where a lie back is necessary I’m just saying I personally use it as a last resort.


notapplicable


Mar 15, 2009, 2:08 AM
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kane_schutzman wrote:
The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack.

Thats too funny. I've got this image in my head of you with one color for hands, another for feet and yet another for gear placements. A whole color coded tick marking rainbow!

Interestingly enough, there is one guy I climb with who carries a piece of pink sidewalk chalk in his chalk bag. He doesn't tick mark with it or anything, he just uses it as a worry stone of sorts while resting and shaking out. He's a strange dude though.


Partner devkrev


Mar 15, 2009, 2:59 AM
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kane_schutzman wrote:
My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?Tongue

Then why lead the climb at all?


dev


Partner angry


Mar 15, 2009, 3:30 AM
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To the OP and to some others in this thread.

Take some fucking pride, learn to climb, stop being weak.

There's a (very) occasional 11+ crack that needs a lieback. In the 12's it's a move here and a move there. Almost never the whole route.

Unless you can sport so damn hard that you can power through anything (13+ minimum), the layback will make you a weaker crack climber.

I suggest you look at the routes in my profile before you disagree with me.

I don't layback, I'm a piss poor sport climber, but I felt it was worth my time to learn how to climb a crack. Not climb around it. It's worked for me.


mar_leclerc


Mar 15, 2009, 9:43 AM
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It could be jammed theoretically. The problem is that the crack cuts into the face at an angle (not cutting straight into the rock) so one side is a jug and the other is a big sloper. It's pretty easy just to grab the jug and put your feet on the sloper and cruise up. Halfway is gets wider and I just jam it and take a rest, then the crack petters out and it's face holds to the top. The climb is way below my max grade, so I guess I ought to just ball up and go for it...


Heres the route (I know Im pinkpointing, please don't turn this into a hate thread)




Partner robdotcalm


Mar 15, 2009, 1:51 PM
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angry wrote:
To the OP and to some others in this thread.

Take some fucking pride, learn to climb, stop being weak.

There's a (very) occasional 11+ crack that needs a lieback. In the 12's it's a move here and a move there. Almost never the whole route.

Unless you can sport so damn hard that you can power through anything (13+ minimum), the layback will make you a weaker crack climber.

I suggest you look at the routes in my profile before you disagree with me.

I don't layback, I'm a piss poor sport climber, but I felt it was worth my time to learn how to climb a crack. Not climb around it. It's worked for me.

This is an obvious assertion no sane person would doubt: The technique used, e.g., jamming, liebacking, facing, depends on the rock and is situational. Knowing what to use and where is part of becoming a better climber.

Following rigid dogma so that, say, an easy lieback becomes a difficult jam defies common sense.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


Partner angry


Mar 15, 2009, 2:15 PM
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There are some exceptions I can think of. That said, I've climbed thousands of cracks at all grades.

If I were to chart it all out I bet that the layback is the "better" or "easier" way maybe 2% of the time.

For the sake of argument, lets say it's 10%. That leaves you with 90% of crack routes working better with pure jamming techniques and not laybacks.

I'd say that would be the ideal skillset to follow a strict dogma of techniques. Even on the laybacks, you still place your pro off jams then return to laybacks once you're ready to climb again.


kane_schutzman


Mar 15, 2009, 2:52 PM
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1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end.

2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.


dynoho


Mar 15, 2009, 2:55 PM
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angry wrote:
There are some exceptions I can think of. That said, I've climbed thousands of cracks at all grades.

If I were to chart it all out I bet that the layback is the "better" or "easier" way maybe 2% of the time.

Listen to angry. While the technique can be useful, it is a parasite on your stamina. Cracks are painful SOBS, but stay over your toes and you can go all day. Blow out your arms, you'll walk away.

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