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mountainhick
Mar 18, 2009, 8:03 PM
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First off, howdy. I just went climbing a couple weeks ago for the first time in 10 years, and decided to get back into it, so I am replacing all soft goods. I used to use waist belt/leg loop seperates, but looks like all you can get these days are integrated harnesses. All seem to have belay loops. I have not previously used belay loops, but clipped the locking carabiner into the tie in points of waist and leg loops next to rope tie in.
The belay loops look like a pain in the ass. They move the belay device farther from reach and reduce the amount of rope you can handle with each movement. They also introduce more slack into the system and twist the belay device 90 degrees from the natural alignment for belaying/braking.
Is there any reason belay loops are actually necessary or better than not using them?
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shimanilami
Mar 18, 2009, 8:10 PM
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mountainhick wrote: Is there any reason belay loops are actually necessary or better than not using them?
No. You should just cut them off.
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coastal_climber
Mar 18, 2009, 8:13 PM
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mountainhick wrote: First off, howdy. I just went climbing a couple weeks ago for the first time in 10 years, and decided to get back into it, so I am replacing all soft goods. I used to use waist belt/leg loop seperates, but looks like all you can get these days are integrated harnesses. All seem to have belay loops. I have not previously used belay loops, but clipped the locking carabiner into the tie in points of waist and leg loops next to rope tie in. The belay loops look like a pain in the ass. They move the belay device farther from reach and reduce the amount of rope you can handle with each movement. They also introduce more slack into the system and twist the belay device 90 degrees from the natural alignment for belaying/braking. Is there any reason belay loops are actually necessary or better than not using them?
They are there for a reason. Also called a belay loop for a reason. Use it.
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kennoyce
Mar 18, 2009, 8:15 PM
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the biggest reason to use a belay loop is to eliminate the possibility of cross loading the belay biner. My first harness was the type that you are talking about, so I have experience with both, and I would have to say that it is much easier to use a belay loop than not.
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mountainhick
Mar 18, 2009, 8:20 PM
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I climbed and guided without using a belay loop for 20 years prior to my hiatus with no belaying mishaps. Respectfully, I am looking for real info and reasons to use or not use them, not dogma.
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tradrenn
Mar 18, 2009, 8:21 PM
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mountainhick wrote: First off, howdy. I just went climbing a couple weeks ago for the first time in 10 years, and decided to get back into it, so I am replacing all soft goods. I used to use waist belt/leg loop seperates, but looks like all you can get these days are integrated harnesses. All seem to have belay loops. I have not previously used belay loops, but clipped the locking carabiner into the tie in points of waist and leg loops next to rope tie in.
That used to be the way to do it.
mountainhick wrote: The belay loops look like a pain in the ass. They move the belay device farther from reach and reduce the amount of rope you can handle with each movement. They also introduce more slack into the system and twist the belay device 90 degrees from the natural alignment for belaying/braking.
Yes it does, about 5 inches. Belay loop doesn't twist your belay device, you are using it wrong, that's all.
or
This days we call it wrong, what you think is/was right 10-15 years ago.
mountainhick wrote: Is there any reason belay loops are actually necessary or better than not using them?
Without belay loop you are loading belay biner tri-way and the problem with it is that biners were not design to hold loads that way. Not all "Old school things" are that great.
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mountainhick
Mar 18, 2009, 8:26 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Without belay loop you are loading belay biner tri-way and the problem with it is that biners were not design to hold loads that way. Not all "Old school things" are that great.
I can totally accept that. I am fine letting go of old ways if I know the reasons to do so. This is why I asked.
I started climbing on a bowline on a coil and just a swami belt. I was glad to let those old school tie ins go!
(This post was edited by mountainhick on Mar 18, 2009, 8:30 PM)
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pornstarr
Mar 18, 2009, 9:05 PM
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Without researching it I believe the belay loop is the strongest part of the harness (kn). Having said that, it also sees a good bit of wear due to it's uses and location.
I too started with a harness with no belay loop and it seemed odd at first...you'll get used to it, sorta.
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shockabuku
Mar 18, 2009, 9:11 PM
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C'mon, it's been more than 10 years, right?
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carabiner96
Mar 18, 2009, 9:18 PM
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they've definitely been around more than 10 years...when I started climbing i was 12, that was in '99, and i think at the camp i went to before that had a "climbing wall" that had obnoxiously colored but otherwise current designed harnesses.
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shockabuku
Mar 18, 2009, 9:19 PM
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Here, no belay loop.
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patmay81
Mar 18, 2009, 9:19 PM
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the belay loop is definitely a bonus on new harnesses. It does extend the device a few inches, but on rappel that is kind of nice (most of the time). It also give the belay more flexibility, and you don't have to be so diligent in monitoring the belay biner to prevent cross loading/triaxial loading. With devices such as the grigri it is especially helpful.
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 9:24 PM
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shockabuku wrote: C'mon, it's been more than 10 years, right?
Apparently, a whole lot of brain cells can die in 10 years.
Curt
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budman
Mar 18, 2009, 9:32 PM
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Your correct in saying that it twists the belay device 90 degrees. I always belay from the swami belt and the sit harness as in days of old, it has been more than 10 years right? I often use the belay loop to shorten my tie in point to the anchor, using a binner and a clove hitch, which makes it easy to adjust. Also the dam thing keeps the leg loops and the swami belt together as a unit. Never use the belay loop as the tie in point but you already knew that.
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styndall
Mar 18, 2009, 9:34 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Here, no belay loop. [image]http://www.edelridna.com/images/product_images/thumbnail_Loopo.jpg[/image]
What's that crazy thing?
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shockabuku
Mar 18, 2009, 9:41 PM
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mountainhick wrote: Huh? What's been more than 10 years? Belay loops? Yeah, sure, they've been around longer, but back then I never bought integrated harnesses, I bought belt and leg loop separates.
I've been climbing for almost 20 years now and I can't recall ever seeing separate leg loops and belt for sale (thought I have a pair of leg loops), or, I think, seeing anyone use them. Hence the "more than 10 years" comment.
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qwert
Mar 18, 2009, 10:14 PM
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I am going a bit away from the flock here, and say: "If you know what you are doing, you can belay without a belay loop"
But still, the various things/ risks mentioned are there. Most important: Triaxial loading. And after you get used to it, it is indeed the better way.
Personally i always use it. Makes stuff much easier, and i actually find most devices to be operated much easier when clipped to the belay loop.
further stuff: It definitely is less than ten years (at least in one case). What about the Black Diamond Bod / alpine Bod harness? that did not have a belay loop, and it still does not have http://www.bdel.com/gear/alpine_bod.php My experience with the alpine Bod is limited, but it seems like an interesting thing
And the "thing" someone posted an image of: Its the one of the new edelrid harnesses. Again: Its totally revolutionary, and the lightest harness in the world and blabla. With that out of the way: It seems like a really cool harness so far. A friend of mine has it since a while, and he seems happy with it. Even though its labeld for sport, he used it a lot for ice climbing. I really want to give that thing a try ...
qwert
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pornstarr
Mar 18, 2009, 10:25 PM
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My first harness, a BD Bod 1999, did not have a belay loop. still got it, don't use it.
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swoopee
Mar 18, 2009, 10:27 PM
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I bought one of these just to have an extra in my pack in case someone needed to borrow it. I tried it on, but did not particularly like it (supposedly unisex, but I found it to be very unfriendly, or maybe too friendly), but hey beggars can't be choosers. Notice it has no belay loop.
http://www.rei.com/product/699550
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altelis
Mar 18, 2009, 10:38 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Here, no belay loop.
whats interesting about this choice is that while it doesn't have a belay loop per se, the two clip in points are arranged vertically, like a belay loop, instead of horizontally, like the tie in points.
and to the OP- if your shits getting twisted when belaying with a tube style device, grigri, cinch, etc., then your doing it wrong. contemporary (notice i didn't say modern  ) belay devices are specifically meant to be used in the orientation that they are put in when clipped to a belay loop and not to the tie in points.
check out the threads in the graveyard that ye terrible-and-malicious overlord () pointed out. this has been hashed out pretty well.
and as others have pointed out, there definitely are harness without belay loops if thats what you really want (i really like my alpine bod for ski mountaineering, glacier travel, easy mountaineering/alpine climbing) and decide you still don't want a belay loop. You could of course not use it if the harness has it, or cut it off.
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mountainhick
Mar 18, 2009, 10:57 PM
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altelis wrote: and to the OP- if your shits getting twisted when belaying with a tube style device, grigri, cinch, etc., then your doing it wrong. contemporary (notice i didn't say modern ) belay devices are specifically meant to be used in the orientation that they are put in when clipped to a belay loop and not to the tie in points.
I think you misunderstand. If you clip a biner through the tie in point of a standard waist belt/leg loop type harness to set up your belay, once you thread a rope through a plate/atc type device, the natural orientation of the brake rope is to the right or left. Clipping into a belay loop turns this orientation 90 degrees. The resulting natural lead of the brake rope is up or down instead of towards the brake hand side. I am not talking about a fubared twisted up belay, just this natural lead of the brake rope.
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altelis
Mar 18, 2009, 11:01 PM
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mountainhick wrote: altelis wrote: and to the OP- if your shits getting twisted when belaying with a tube style device, grigri, cinch, etc., then your doing it wrong. contemporary (notice i didn't say modern ) belay devices are specifically meant to be used in the orientation that they are put in when clipped to a belay loop and not to the tie in points. I think you misunderstand. If you clip a biner through the tie in point of a standard waist belt/leg loop type harness to set up your belay, once you thread a rope through a plate/atc type device, the natural orientation of the brake rope is to the right or left. Clipping into a belay loop turns this orientation 90 degrees. The resulting natural lead of the brake rope is up or down instead of towards the brake hand side. I am not talking about a fubared twisted up belay, just this natural lead of the brake rope.
Fair enough. I did misunderstand. I thought you were clipping to the belay loop in such a way as to get a twist or other weird orientation of the brake strand.
I also wish to clarify, however, and point out that the "up and down" orientation of the brake rope allows for greater braking power as compared to the "left and right" orientation. Again, this has been hashed and rehashed.
Cheers.
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cracklover
Mar 18, 2009, 11:16 PM
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Having a belay loop is really nice, actually. Never mind all the tri-axial stuff, which may or may not be real.
Here are a few nice things about it:
1 - Gives you more room to attach multiple things.
2 - Makes clipping and unclipping stuff waaaay easier than having to scrunch up the two points to get that biner off.
3 - Gives you a chance to attach different things at different lengths. For example, when aid climbing, I attach my fifi to the leg/swami (keeps it closer) but the belay device goes on the belay loop.
That's just a few off the top of my head.
My advice to you would be to get a new harness with a belay loop, and rather than cutting it off, try using it for a few years. I think you'll quickly find that its convenience wins you over. If not - one snip, no problem.
Cheers!
GO
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altelis
Mar 19, 2009, 12:24 AM
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cracklover wrote: Having a belay loop is really nice, actually. Never mind all the tri-axial stuff, which may or may not be real. Here are a few nice things about it: 1 - Gives you more room to attach multiple things. 2 - Makes clipping and unclipping stuff waaaay easier than having to scrunch up the two points to get that biner off. 3 - Gives you a chance to attach different things at different lengths. For example, when aid climbing, I attach my fifi to the leg/swami (keeps it closer) but the belay device goes on the belay loop. That's just a few off the top of my head. My advice to you would be to get a new harness with a belay loop, and rather than cutting it off, try using it for a few years. I think you'll quickly find that its convenience wins you over. If not - one snip, no problem. Cheers! GO
+1
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