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jeremy11
Mar 23, 2009, 4:09 PM
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Is there some ethical superiority to a "Hammerless" ascent vs a "Clean" ascent but with a hammer (but no pins) along for funkness testing and cleaning?
I've also used the hammer and nut tool/screwdriver to tap micronuts deeper into the crack.
Or should only the second have a hammer for cleaning?
Sometimes pins and beaks are placed by hand and used though, and with a hammer the temptation would be too great.
Personally, I don't ever care to clean an aid pitch without a hammer, it makes small nuts come out so much easier.
When rope soloing should one leave the hammer at the bottom anchor while on lead, then use it for cleaning?
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coastal_climber
Mar 23, 2009, 4:42 PM
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The "clean" is to save the destruction of rock in popular areas, such as Yosemite or Squamish to name a couple. Obviously, if you fell on a stopper, you would have to use a hammer to remove it...
Never hurts to have a hammer, they are pretty indispensable.
Mostly they say hammerless because they don't want the cracks beaten out by hundreds of pins.
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coastal_climber
Mar 23, 2009, 4:43 PM
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jeremy11 wrote: Sometimes pins and beaks are placed by hand and used though, and with a hammer the temptation would be too great.
Really?
If you can't do the route as it was put up, do others until you are able to.
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Mar 23, 2009, 4:45 PM)
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md3
Mar 23, 2009, 4:50 PM
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You need a hammer to remove every stopper you have fallen on? What are you talking about?
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jeremy11
Mar 23, 2009, 4:54 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: jeremy11 wrote: Sometimes pins and beaks are placed by hand and used though, and with a hammer the temptation would be too great. Really? If you can't do the route as it was put up, do others until you are able to.
I'm saying that pins can be used without a hammer, and a hammer can be carried for cleaning and funking, but the two carried together on an established clean route could look incriminating, and be a temptation when the climbing gets hard, but either separately may not be as tempting or incriminating.
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dingus
Mar 23, 2009, 4:56 PM
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Well it turns out that not all 'clean' ascents really were all that clean.
Hammerless removes most doubt.
It only matters if you think it matters.
DMT
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garrettweaver
Mar 23, 2009, 5:03 PM
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It sounds like it would be ok to have the second carry a hammer for clean aid, but the leader would not really need one?
Garrett
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Lazlo
Mar 23, 2009, 5:32 PM
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garrettweaver wrote: It sounds like it would be ok to have the second carry a hammer for clean aid, but the leader would not really need one? Garrett
Most beta even for clean aid recommends a hammer and small bolting kit for the possibility of missing bolts due to rock fall, or bad bolts due to age.
If I'm spending several days on a wall....there will be a hammer in the bottom of my bag.
EDIT: I don't mean to sound snobby or anything else. I'm just tossing my opinion in the mix. 
(This post was edited by Lazlo on Mar 23, 2009, 5:33 PM)
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lambone
Mar 23, 2009, 5:33 PM
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Certain routes should go hammerless, like Nose, Salathe, Lurking Fear, SFWC...but for most other bigwall routes in the valley I think you are stupid not to bring a hammer. Now whether you use it or not on lead is a matter of the fixed gear situation and your skill/style.
I often bring a hammer for cleaning even on a route that goes hammerless. Can just make getting nuts out twice as fast, and facilitate removing booty cams.
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Lazlo
Mar 23, 2009, 5:35 PM
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lambone wrote: Certain routes should go hammerless, like Nose, Salathe, Lurking Fear, SFWC...but for most other bigwall routes in the valley I think you are stupid not to bring a hammer. Now whether you use it or not on lead is a matter of the fixed gear situation and your skill/style. I often bring a hammer for cleaning even on a route that goes hammerless. Can just make getting nuts out twice as fast, and facilitate removing booty cams.
How does a hammer help for booty cams? I never understood that. Or am i just over thinking it?
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dingus
Mar 23, 2009, 5:40 PM
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Lazlo wrote: lambone wrote: Certain routes should go hammerless, like Nose, Salathe, Lurking Fear, SFWC...but for most other bigwall routes in the valley I think you are stupid not to bring a hammer. Now whether you use it or not on lead is a matter of the fixed gear situation and your skill/style. I often bring a hammer for cleaning even on a route that goes hammerless. Can just make getting nuts out twice as fast, and facilitate removing booty cams. How does a hammer help for booty cams? I never understood that. Or am i just over thinking it?
Many ways - here's one. Hammer to funkness to stuck cam. Nut tool in other hand individually manipulating cams. Jam poke funk jam poke funk jam poke funk
till cam falls apart or comes out!
DMT
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Lazlo
Mar 23, 2009, 5:59 PM
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dingus wrote: Lazlo wrote: lambone wrote: Certain routes should go hammerless, like Nose, Salathe, Lurking Fear, SFWC...but for most other bigwall routes in the valley I think you are stupid not to bring a hammer. Now whether you use it or not on lead is a matter of the fixed gear situation and your skill/style. I often bring a hammer for cleaning even on a route that goes hammerless. Can just make getting nuts out twice as fast, and facilitate removing booty cams. How does a hammer help for booty cams? I never understood that. Or am i just over thinking it? Many ways - here's one. Hammer to funkness to stuck cam. Nut tool in other hand individually manipulating cams. Jam poke funk jam poke funk jam poke funk till cam falls apart or comes out! DMT
You made me cry.
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jeremy11
Mar 23, 2009, 9:02 PM
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makes sense - after all, when the fixed pins and copperheads that a "clean" ascent relies on pull out, then what? Without a hammer, you bail.
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tarsier
Apr 10, 2009, 6:36 AM
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Unless you're doing marginal placements horizontally you should bounce test instead of "funkness," and I don't know why you need a hammer to get out stoppers. Maybe I've just been doing things the hard way.
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jeremy11
Apr 10, 2009, 3:27 PM
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do you mean "marginal placements while traversing"?
I generally just use the funkness when the placements are wandering side to side and I'm high up in the aiders. If the piece you are testing blows, then it can throw you off balance. I probably use the funkness more than "necessary" because I'm scared.
You can clean a lot without a hammer, but you'll still need something like a big hex to hit the nut tool. The hammer gets most micronuts loose in one or two taps.
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tarsier
Apr 10, 2009, 8:52 PM
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Yes, while traversing there may not be a better way to test than using the funkness.
Sounds like you're doing some pretty hard aid.
I have on occasion carried a #10 hex for the purpose of tapping on a nut tool.
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jeremy11
Apr 10, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Hard? Well, its hard to me..... 
generally single pitch C2 or A2, but with somewhat tricky not obvious placements, shallow, flared, but with enough good pieces to keep the danger rating in check.
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