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Removeable bolts instead of rivets?
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shimanilami


Mar 24, 2009, 9:42 AM
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Removeable bolts instead of rivets?
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I'm planning a trip up Mescalito in May and have been reading up on recent trip reports. It sounds like there are a number of time-bomb rivets that would be very difficult to pass if they pulled out or broke. The recommendation is to bring a drill.

So I borrowed a drill from a friend. Inside the drill's stuff sack were two removeable bolts. It got me thinking, "Why drill a complete hole to place a bolt if I can just use these?" From my perspective, it could be easier and would leave less crap on the rock, but it would screw the next party over (unless of course they had removeable bolts or a drill and bolts of their own.)

To bolt or to removeable bolt? That is the question.


Partner soberpete


Mar 24, 2009, 9:54 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Don't you have to drill a hole to use a removable bolt anyway. Might as well put in a new rivet- if the old ones blow out.

Peace,

Pete


shimanilami


Mar 24, 2009, 9:55 AM
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Re: [soberpete] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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soberpete wrote:
Don't you have to drill a hole to use a removable bolt anyway. Might as well put in a new rivet- if the old ones blow out.

Peace,

Pete

Yeah. But you only need to go about 1" deep for a removeable bolt, versus 3.5" for a permanent one.


thabadcharacter


Mar 24, 2009, 9:59 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Don't replace rivets with bolts. Bring a kit with a few bolts/hangers for the lead bolts (belays are fine), and a handful of Rawl 1/4" rivets. if you are gonna rill the hole, fill it with metal, of the same type.


Partner soberpete


Mar 24, 2009, 10:04 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Just for clarification, are you going to replace rivets with bolts? That would alter the route significantly.

I agree that a 1" hole has much less impact on the rock than a 3.5" hole.
Either way, using a hand drill is a lot of work and cursing.
Have fun.

Peace,

Edited: Mr. Bad beat me to it.

Pete


(This post was edited by soberpete on Mar 24, 2009, 10:06 AM)


shimanilami


Mar 24, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Re: [thabadcharacter] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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I will now display my ignorance.

I've never placed a rivet. I've never even held one in my hand. Isn't it basically a 1/4" bolt without a hanger? So if I was to replace a pulled or busted rivet, why not put a bomber 3/8" or larger bolt in? I suppose it would be less exciting for the next guy, but are blown rivets/hangers really the kind of excitement we're after? Why not replace a rivet with a bolt?


thabadcharacter


Mar 24, 2009, 10:32 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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The reason NOT to replace a rivet with a bolt is simple. It does alter the climbing experience. And good, well placed rivets do last. Say you have 2 A3 head/beak seams connected by a single rivet. Change that rivet to a bolt (as a certain Yosemite ASCA re-bolter has done many times in similar places, and it does become a different experience than the first ascentionist intended.

You will most likely not have to replace anything on the route, but if you do, why put the unneccessary (and unwanted) time into putting a 3/8" bolt into a rivet ladder? Bolts for bolts, rivets for rivets. Simple.


shimanilami


Mar 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
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Re: [thabadcharacter] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Got it. I'll pick up some rivets.

Thanks to everyone for their input.


the_climber


Mar 24, 2009, 8:30 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
I will now display my ignorance.

I've never placed a rivet. I've never even held one in my hand. Isn't it basically a 1/4" bolt without a hanger? So if I was to replace a pulled or busted rivet, why not put a bomber 3/8" or larger bolt in? I suppose it would be less exciting for the next guy, but are blown rivets/hangers really the kind of excitement we're after? Why not replace a rivet with a bolt?

A rivet can be anything from a 1/4" button head to a stub 5/16" machine bolt "encouraged" into a 1/4 hole. They can be surprisingly strong, or ticking time bombs, either way they will require some for or rivet hanger to get by past them be it a swadged rivet hanger, a stopper slid down the wire, or a dubloon (or whatever fish was calling them... at least I think it was fish. Maybe I should jsut crack another beer.



Anywho, back to the point, DO NOT CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF A CLIMB. PERIOD.

Bolt for Bolt, Pin for Pin, Rivet for Rivet.


(This post was edited by the_climber on Mar 24, 2009, 9:02 PM)


coolcat83


Mar 24, 2009, 9:00 PM
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Re: [the_climber] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
I will now display my ignorance.

I've never placed a rivet. I've never even held one in my hand. Isn't it basically a 1/4" bolt without a hanger? So if I was to replace a pulled or busted rivet, why not put a bomber 3/8" or larger bolt in? I suppose it would be less exciting for the next guy, but are blown rivets/hangers really the kind of excitement we're after? Why not replace a rivet with a bolt?

A rivet can be anything from a 1/3 putton head to a stub 5/16" machine bolt "encouraged" into a 1/4 hole. They can be surprisingly strong, or ticking time bombs, either way they will require some for or rivet hanger to get by past them be it a swadged rivet hanger, a stopper slid down the wire, or a dubloon (or whatever fish was calling them... at least I think it was fish. Maybe I should jsut crack another beer.



Anywho, back to the point, DO NOT CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF A CLIMB. PERIOD.

Bolt for Bolt, Pin for Pin, Rivet for Rivet.

isn't that just contrived risk? that's like saying we should use hexes instead of cams because that's how the route went originally.... no? enjoy your aid


the_climber


Mar 24, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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coolcat83 wrote:
isn't that just contrived risk? that's like saying we should use hexes instead of cams because that's how the route went originally.... no? enjoy your aid

Well is the hex actually a better placement? Sometimes that IS the case, and sometime the mytical "cams are ALWAYS better than hexes" leaves climbers exposed to more risk than they could be, by trusting sub par gear placements. Some times the cam is better, and sometimes it would have been better to save that damn cam for higher up on the climb when placing that hex just isn't an option.

Look, new technology and gear has been a driving force in the evolution of ethics for climbing from the onset. Look at what both the passive and 'clean' active gear revolutions has done for climbing... yes "clean" active, pins are still active gear.

Not all climbs are ment to be repeated, and not all climbs are ment to be climbs that the average climber can jump on. This is nothing new, it's always been that way, as it should.

Climbing will never be a safe activity, nor should it. There are risks and any of us could die on any climb. And I do mean on any climb, be it a 5.4 or a Canadian Rockies 5.9 A2 (generic really hard, totally sandbagged, basically make your balls invert Canadian grade, and yes... even Chuck Norris would cry).

Rivets are acceptable. In fact they are also much more practical, and realistic that bolts in many situations. That said, nothing is forever, gear is subject to the same forces of nature as anything else. I've clipped some scary bolts that I would much rather had been old rivets... some of those bolts were basically new BTW.

IF a climb is put up in a given style who are any of us to lower that piece of rock to our level by corrupting the style it was first climbed in? Just to put a "feather in our cap"? Seriously, not every climb was ment to be climbed by every climber. It's not a equality issue, nore is it a safety issue.

I have added newer bolts to routes, but I have always made the effort to speak with those who did the FA first, and get their blessing. It IS a matter of RESPECT.

If a climber does not agree with another climbers route, your statement will be much more bold by establishing a route of equal character than by verbal or written dissaprovel of "your route is unsafe for other climbers".

An argument of using hexes instead of cams "because it was first done with x 40 years ago, and not y gear which only came out 30 years ago" is akin to bolting a crack just so "every climber can safely experience that route".

Edit to add: No, it isn't "just contrived risk", and if you don't get it than I can't help you.


Edit to add one more thing: You may not understand some things untill you go back to a route that you've FA'd only to find BOLTS scattered where none were needed. Then have to make yet another trip back to remove them. To some putting up a route is like completeing a masterpiece. It may infact be a statement, and record of the greatest pitch they have ever lead.... it's along the same lines as someone proclaiming "why not touch up some of the faded paint on the mona lisa 'because it would be more pleasing to some if the colours were more vibrant' ".


(This post was edited by the_climber on Mar 24, 2009, 9:39 PM)


coolcat83


Mar 24, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Re: [the_climber] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
coolcat83 wrote:
isn't that just contrived risk? that's like saying we should use hexes instead of cams because that's how the route went originally.... no? enjoy your aid

Well is the hex actually a better placement? Sometimes that IS the case, and sometime the mytical "cams are ALWAYS better than hexes" leaves climbers exposed to more risk than they could be, by trusting sub par gear placements. Some times the cam is better, and sometimes it would have been better to save that damn cam for higher up on the climb when placing that hex just isn't an option.

Look, new technology and gear has been a driving force in the evolution of ethics for climbing from the onset. Look at what both the passive and 'clean' active gear revolutions has done for climbing... yes "clean" active, pins are still active gear.

Not all climbs are ment to be repeated, and not all climbs are ment to be climbs that the average climber can jump on. This is nothing new, it's always been that way, as it should.

Climbing will never be a safe activity, nor should it. There are risks and any of us could die on any climb. And I do mean on any climb, be it a 5.4 or a Canadian Rockies 5.9 A2 (generic really hard, totally sandbagged, basically make your balls invert Canadian grade, and yes... even Chuck Norris would cry).

Rivets are acceptable. In fact they are also much more practical, and realistic that bolts in many situations. That said, nothing is forever, gear is subject to the same forces of nature as anything else. I've clipped some scary bolts that I would much rather had been old rivets... some of those bolts were basically new BTW.

IF a climb is put up in a given style who are any of us to lower that piece of rock to our level by corrupting the style it was first climbed in? Just to put a "feather in our cap"? Seriously, not every climb was ment to be climbed by every climber. It's not a equality issue, nore is it a safety issue.

I have added newer bolts to routes, but I have always made the effort to speak with those who did the FA first, and get their blessing. It IS a matter of RESPECT.

If a climber does not agree with another climbers route, your statement will be much more bold by establishing a route of equal character than by verbal or written dissaprovel of "your route is unsafe for other climbers".

An argument of using hexes instead of cams "because it was first done with x 40 years ago, and not y gear which only came out 30 years ago" is akin to bolting a crack just so "every climber can safely experience that route".

Edit to add: No, it isn't "just contrived risk", and if you don't get it than I can't help you.

oh i understand where you are coming from and i am not saying that you need to bring climbs down to your level, but you have already altered the rock...which i personally don't like so why have to make it spicier, there are many many things i can't climb and i'm fine with that. i wouldn't go to extreme example of bolting a crack but i understand, but why drill a rivet? if the climb won't go without modifying the rock maybe it wasn't meant to go? or it has to wait for better technology. who knows we may all be climbing with some sort of quantum anchors that could hold on glass smooth surfaces in the not so distant future, then what?

edited to add: yeah yeah, i know don't start with the quantum, i know the theory


(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Mar 24, 2009, 9:47 PM)


the_climber


Mar 24, 2009, 9:53 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Good to see you get what I was sayin' coolcat.

I don't know how much time you've spent on new ground, but sometimes you put a a route for others to follow, and sometimes you're turely working on a piece of art where it doesn't matter if anyone ever follows it again.


Then again, sometimes you are on something and there is a blank section and all that is really needed is a rivet.Shocked


This could really turn into a circular drunkin' debate.... would that make it "the spins" Laugh


WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!


Someone get me another beer.


(This post was edited by the_climber on Mar 24, 2009, 9:54 PM)


coolcat83


Mar 25, 2009, 5:41 PM
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Re: [the_climber] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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hey if your buyingTongue...so on new ground why a rivet vs a bolt? besides speed and spice


altelis


Mar 25, 2009, 5:47 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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coolcat83 wrote:
hey if your buyingTongue...so on new ground why a rivet vs a bolt? besides speed and spice

are those two not enough? Tongue


bill413


Mar 25, 2009, 6:36 PM
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Re: [altelis] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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One thought that occurs to me is that if you are putting up a new route, and drilling on lead....the smaller & quicker the hole the happier you'll be....though others who don't have to drill might disagree.


the_climber


Mar 26, 2009, 9:20 AM
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Re: [bill413] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Bill's onto part of it.

Cost can play a factor for some too, as does weight, style, fear, speed, and the "holy f'k! What the hell am I doing here and how the hell can I get out of here faster" Factor.

There are so many choices. Does one hook, can you even hook across that? Does one Bathook? Rivet? Bolt? Bail? Which one most closely maintains the character and preexisting spice and commitment of the pitch?

If you were on a whitewater trip and there was this one rapid that was a great Class 4, only there was a option to paddle only the first and last bits via an easy bypass channel. Or you could get the full line by a simple back ferry into the remaining froth...


pmyche


Mar 26, 2009, 9:48 AM
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skinner


Apr 4, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Re: [pmyche] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Why drill rivets instead of bolts? Simple.. *efficiency*.
When drilling through a blank section, it's far more efficient to do less drilling and more moving.. up.


Replacing rivets with rivets, bolts with bolts etc. is generally the only acceptable way to retro fit a route.
I say "generally", because there is the odd exception for example; where the rivets have disappeared taking the hook-able portion of the hole with them, leaving useless rounded out divots. As "the_climber" mentioned, it is also proper etiquette to contact the FA (if possible) before considering any permanent anchor placement that might alter the character of the route.

Why not replace rivets with bolts? With thinking like that, we could eventually end up with nothing but multi-pitch bolt ladders that used to be classic aid lines.

I have a feeling though, that after you've drilled a few bolts on lead, you'll totally understand "why" rivets.


potreroed


Apr 9, 2009, 4:31 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Removeable bolts instead of rivets? [In reply to]
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Just for info sake: removable bolts are a pain to remove after they have been weighted.


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