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clee03m
Apr 7, 2009, 3:20 PM
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I bought one and tried to use the self-breaking function for belaying up a second and found it difficult to take up slack. I felt like it would half way self-break as I pull on the rope and needed to pull pretty hard. I felt like I would get a pump just doing that. Am I just a weakling or do you think I am doing something wrong?
Also, can someone explain why when belaying up 2 followers, self break function doesn't work if one person is hanging? I tried to wrap my brain around that, but couldn't.
I tried searching, but didn't find specific answers for these questions.
Thanks
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shoo
Apr 7, 2009, 3:29 PM
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When feeding, use one had to feed in the slack and the other to pull it out.
As for the self-braking feature with two seconds. It isn't that the device will no longer brake when one of your seconds is weighting the rope; rather, the device will no longer feed for either of the seconds when one is weighting the rope.
Edited to spell "brake" correctly.
Edited further to state that this is not entirely accurate. Keep reading the thread for more details.
(This post was edited by shoo on Apr 10, 2009, 9:04 PM)
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coastal_climber
Apr 7, 2009, 3:31 PM
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Perhaps you weren't below the belay device enough. It's easier if it is in the top-shelf of your anchor and you are hanging off the master point.
When one person hangs or falls, the biner is pulled into the device, to lock the fall, locking both ropes, since one biner goes through both.
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verticon
Apr 7, 2009, 3:41 PM
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Your rope might be too thick. Try using a 9.2 - 9.7 mm line and see if it makes any difference
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viciado
Apr 7, 2009, 3:54 PM
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You do not give enough information for anyone to respond directly to your situation. In general though, take a look at the mechanics of how the self-brake should work. If you have tension on the ropes, they will lock. If not, you should be able to feed the climber side through and pull the belay side as per the manual. Different angles will effect how easily this works.
The double rope self-braking may fail to lock off one of your seconds if the other is already hanging and thus has engaged their rope in self-brake. Depending on where the two are relative to one another, this may result in an orientation of the remaining climber's rope such that there is not sufficient contact between the climber and belay sides of the rope and so there will not be enough friction to auto brake. The warning in the manual speaks directly to this issue and indicates that you should NOT let go of either brake rope even if you think that they are both in self-brake. This should be a redundant statement in that you never let go of the brake rope unless it is already tied off.
(This post was edited by viciado on Apr 7, 2009, 4:12 PM)
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hhelbein
Apr 7, 2009, 4:06 PM
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With the ATC Guide, I am learning the following to efficiently/more comfortably belay from the anchor, which I suspect would also apply to the Reverso 3:
-Have the belay device mounted higher up
-Feed with one hand/pull with the other as others said.
-Thick ropes such as, 10.2 and up, don't seem to feed well in this mode. My friend's 11 mm fuzzy rope was right out of the question.
-Get yourself situated in a comfortable stance at the anchor so you can feed rope, stack rope, and watch second, without contorting yourself and the rope.
-Maybe try another type of locking biner, such as a round stock BD RockLock.
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andrewG
Apr 7, 2009, 4:33 PM
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Skinnier ropes are easier. I used it with a 10.2 and it was a pain. My 9.9 is much smoother. Also try to sort of flip the climbers side up while pulling in the slack so the ropes aren't in contact. If you are just trying to pull the slack through the weight of the rope out is essentially breaking, so that would be a pain. So if you are doing that, then you are doing something wrong. If not, get a skinnier rope or stronger arms.
The self brake function will still work if one person is hanging unless you are doing something wrong. If it wouldn't work they wouldn't advertise it as a device that can belay two seconds simultaneously. If you were, for some reason, to be bringing up 2 seconds with a single garda hitch, then you (they) would be screwed. But with a reverso or guide the breaking comes from each rope independently. Lowering one person would be a PITA, but with a little coordination I think you could manage.
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hhelbein
Apr 7, 2009, 4:47 PM
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clee03m wrote: Also, can someone explain why when belaying up 2 followers, self break function doesn't work if one person is hanging? I tried to wrap my brain around that, but couldn't.
Petzyl does state that in their manual at http://www.petzl.com/...EVERSO3_D175000F.pdf
I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will respond, but I suspect the following: Both ropes are sharing/wrapped around the same locking biner used with the Reverso3. When one climber weights rope or falls, that rope pulls the locking biner into the back of the Reverso3 hole for that rope, into locking mode. Since the other rope to the third climber is wrapped around the same biner, it is also pulled into back of of the Reverso 3, but the shape/curvature of the biner being may not allow it to snug up to the other hole in the Reverso3.
The ATC Guide manual doesn't directly state this concern, but I suspect it might apply to it as well. Any comments on it?
-hch
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viciado
Apr 7, 2009, 5:40 PM
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Comments besides what I wrote above? Read the manual
again, but in other words...
The manual clearly indicates the possible failure mode for the self-braking for two seconds in the event that one is hanging in auto-block. When the angle of the climbers rope does not allow it to come into sufficient contact with the brake side, the auto-block will not have enough friction to stop rope movement. Think about it, mess with the gear in your backyard or living room.
The manual further indicates that the belayer should not let go of the brake side of the rope due to the possible failure of auto-block. It is a good practice in any event to not let go of the belay rope unless you have tied it off securely and the climber is not climbing.
As has been said, if both climbers are hanging and the auto-block is engaged for both, have fun releasing!
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granite_grrl
Apr 7, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Two (likely) possible problems:
1) Rope is thick (note: not every thick rope is made equal, I've had a Mammut 10.2 run like ass in my ATC-Guide and a Beal 10.5 run okay).
2) You are positioned poorly to take in rope through the device. Play around with this at home to figure out what's ergonomic and what's not.
If it's not one of these two issues the OP should report back.
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kachoong
Apr 7, 2009, 5:53 PM
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viciado wrote: The manual clearly indicates the possible failure mode for the self-braking for two seconds in the event that one is hanging in auto-block. When the angle of the climbers rope does not allow it to come into sufficient contact with the brake side, the auto-block will not have enough friction to stop rope movement. Think about it, mess with the gear in your backyard or living room.
Yes!
Also make sure if you're bringing up two seconds that your two ropes are of similar diameters. If a climber on say a 10.5mm is hanging, there's a chance there isn't enough (depending on your carabiner) friction to keep a skinnier rope, say a 9.2mm, from sliding through. Makes for possible problems when the seconder on the skinny rope then falls while the climber on the fatter rope is hanging. Keep a good brake ready on both ropes!
[edit: not that anyone would use totally different diameter ropes, but it's something to think about.]
(This post was edited by kachoong on Apr 7, 2009, 5:54 PM)
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clee03m
Apr 7, 2009, 6:06 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: I've had a Mammut 10.2 run like ass in my ATC-Guide
I was using a Mammut 10.2. Am I right in that it's probably easier to skip self breaking mode with this rope? I bought the reverso for a trip coming up where we plan on using thinner double ropes to bring up 2 seconds, so for that it sounds like I should be OK...
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viciado
Apr 7, 2009, 6:16 PM
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Since this is a new device, try it out at home before you go out to climb. Rig something in a tree or your garage (or whatever will let you safely dangle some body weight) that allows you to practice with the ropes and device. You should be able to get a feel for managing the two ropes, the anchor position relative to belayer and (if you plan to use it) managing and releasing the double auto-block.
You do not want to be figuring this out on the rock. It makes it too steep a learning curve with too high of stakes.
Enjoy the experience!
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antiqued
Apr 10, 2009, 6:29 PM
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You're right to ask these questions and understand the answers, and I have never used a Reverso 3, so I won't try to help there. (except to repeat that a round stock biner as the braking biner will allow smoother pulls)
I would just ask you to be sure that simul belaying is appropriate. If there is (in your mind) even a 5% chance that either of your partners will fall, have them climb individually. Trying to lower one while securing the other will be a giant cluster**** unless you've practiced it quite a bit.
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taydude
Apr 10, 2009, 7:07 PM
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Firstly... Perhaps my common sense is wrong here but isn't the self-locking feature of the reverso/guide in that the climber's rope pinches the brake rope? It seems like one side locking would not affect the other rope.
Also, I have a 10.2 and it is hard to pull the rope through. I found that lifting up on the braking biner lightly allows the rope to go through much easier.
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viciado
Apr 10, 2009, 7:12 PM
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If the three or four above posts which describe the failure mode do not help, download the manual (too big to post here) in pdf and look at image 11 (I think). It shows how a climbers rope being out of line with a hanging climber can cause reduced contact resulting in insufficient friction to arrest rope movement.
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clee03m
Apr 10, 2009, 8:50 PM
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antiqued wrote: I would just ask you to be sure that simul belaying is appropriate. If there is (in your mind) even a 5% chance that either of your partners will fall, have them climb individually. Trying to lower one while securing the other will be a giant cluster**** unless you've practiced it quite a bit.
I am used to belaying 2 up since that is what I did when I was in Yosemite last year because we climbed with a party of 3 for the most of the trip. I was hoping reverso would be easier than an ATC, and I still think it will be. So no worries.
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shoo
Apr 10, 2009, 9:03 PM
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This is a pretty educational thread. I will say, though, that this mode of failure isn't particularly likely, at least in my typical multi-pitch strategy. This failure only occurs if the direction of pull from one second is significantly different than the other. This only really occurs when the climber reaches the anchor, at which point the second generally clips in directly rather than hangs out locked off on the belay device.
I find it particularly interesting that this mode of failure, though unlikely in actual use, is not in the ATC-Guide manual.
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drector
Apr 10, 2009, 9:10 PM
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hhelbein wrote: I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will respond, but I suspect the following: Both ropes are sharing/wrapped around the same locking biner used with the Reverso3. When one climber weights rope or falls, that rope pulls the locking biner into the back of the Reverso3 hole for that rope, into locking mode. Since the other rope to the third climber is wrapped around the same biner, it is also pulled into back of of the Reverso 3, but the shape/curvature of the biner being may not allow it to snug up to the other hole in the Reverso3.
You could have just looked at the Petzl document instead of making up your own, likely incorrect, explanation as to what is clearly shown in their picture.
When a climber falls and is caught by a Reverso, ATC Guide, etc..., the device catches them because of the position of of the device and the position of the rope strands coming out of the device. The rope on top is pulled down hard onto the brake end of the rope coming out of the device. The brake end of the rope is essentially pinched/caught/held in place by the climbing end of the rope above it. To lower that climber who just fell, you would change the position of the device by pulling on it from below thus allowing the braking part of the rope to lose contact with the non-brake part of the rope above it. It is one rope sitting on top of the other that does the braking. Now if a following climber falls, they might just be pulling the device in a way that keeps it from catching the other following climber.
In fact, it's possible that when the second of the two following climbers falls, they could be the one that pulls the device into a different orientation thus causing the brake end of the other rope to release! Note that the climbers would have to be positioned very differently below the device to make this a sure thing. If both ropes are parallel then it is likely that the device will catch both of them with no accidental release.
You can see int he Petzl documentation that the climber that is falling after the other climber has been caught is off to the side and his side of the rope won't pinch the brake strand of that same rope because the device cannot move to orient itself in his direction.
Dave
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hhelbein
Apr 10, 2009, 9:23 PM
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drector wrote: You could have just looked at the Petzl document instead of making up your own, likely incorrect, explanation as to what is clearly shown in their picture. ...
I agree that my possible reason offered may not be accurate, but the OP asked "why". To me, and apparently the OP, it's not clear why from the Reverso3 documentation. I think we are agreeing that it most likely has something to with orientation of the belay device/biner/ropes when one rope is under load, preventing locking of the second rope.
By the way, I could not find this scenario in BD's ATC Guide documentation, but I wouldn't want to deal with two climbers falling at the same time with that device either.
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splashclimber
Jun 27, 2009, 2:33 PM
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I am looking for the reverso3 manual (link in earlier reply does not work, and I cannot find it on petzl site).
Does anyone have the link?
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maldaly
Jun 27, 2009, 4:30 PM
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Skimming the thread I don't see any remarks as to the style of the blocking carabiner, and how that can effect your ability to pull rope through. It's super important to use a round stock carabiner as your blocking carabiner. The forged bodies of most of today's carabiners make a rough surface to pull the rope over. Just switching to a round stock 'biner from a forged body one will make a huge difference. These are hard to find and I think that the Petzl Attaché and the Trango HMS Mini are the only ones around.
As far as belaying up 2 climbers with an autobloc rig; lots of good advice here. One thing is missing however, is the need to practice. If you're going to use an autobloc, set it up in a safe place and practice it with some friends. Take a whole day t do it. Set up every possible scenario you can think of and go over and over it. Trying to figure this out for the first time 300' off the ground is a really bad idea.
Better yet, forget the autobloc and use münter hitches.
Climb safe,
Mal
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sungam
Jun 27, 2009, 4:56 PM
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maldaly wrote: Better yet, forget the autobloc and use münter hitches.
I reckon that the autoblocks are a little easier to handle then the hitches.
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bill413
Jun 27, 2009, 10:32 PM
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maldaly wrote: Skimming the thread I don't see any remarks as to the style of the blocking carabiner, and how that can effect your ability to pull rope through. It's super important to use a round stock carabiner as your blocking carabiner. The forged bodies of most of today's carabiners make a rough surface to pull the rope over. Just switching to a round stock 'biner from a forged body one will make a huge difference. These are hard to find and I think that the Petzl Attaché and the Trango HMS Mini are the only ones around. As far as belaying up 2 climbers with an autobloc rig; lots of good advice here. One thing is missing however, is the need to practice. If you're going to use an autobloc, set it up in a safe place and practice it with some friends. Take a whole day t do it. Set up every possible scenario you can think of and go over and over it. Trying to figure this out for the first time 300' off the ground is a really bad idea. Better yet, forget the autobloc and use münter hitches. Climb safe, Mal 
Do you have any tips for using munters with two ropes?
Thanks,
Bill
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