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TonySF


Apr 9, 2009, 2:06 PM
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backup knots while jugging
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If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.


sspssp


Apr 9, 2009, 2:30 PM
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Re: [TonySF] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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Safety is a matter of tradeoffs and personal opinion. Is any climbing/jugging safe?

But as a suggestion as to what I would do, I would connect my grigri below the jugs and call it good to go.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 9, 2009, 2:33 PM)


colatownkid


Apr 9, 2009, 2:35 PM
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Re: [TonySF] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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TonySF wrote:
If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I'll answer your question with a question:
Why do you tie back-up knots at all?

You tie them so that if your ascender fails, you'll stop on the knot and not just go flying off the end of the rope. If the end of your rope is already anchored to bolts down below, then you're not going to fall off the end of the rope anyway.

However, tying back-up knots frequently means that not only do you not fall off the end of the rope, but you get stopped only a few feet from the point where your ascender failed, and not all the way at the bottom of the rope (which could be hundreds of feet below).

in my personal opinion, two ascenders each attached to my harness with the rope end tied off at the bottom would be enough redundancy for me to not tie back-up knots. but you're free to decide how safe or dangerous you want to be and what exactly that means for you. it's all situational.


Alpine07


Apr 9, 2009, 2:48 PM
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Re: [colatownkid] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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colatownkid wrote:
TonySF wrote:
If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I'll answer your question with a question:
Why do you tie back-up knots at all?

You tie them so that if your ascender fails, you'll stop on the knot and not just go flying off the end of the rope. If the end of your rope is already anchored to bolts down below, then you're not going to fall off the end of the rope anyway.

However, tying back-up knots frequently means that not only do you not fall off the end of the rope, but you get stopped only a few feet from the point where your ascender failed, and not all the way at the bottom of the rope (which could be hundreds of feet below).

in my personal opinion, two ascenders each attached to my harness with the rope end tied off at the bottom would be enough redundancy for me to not tie back-up knots. but you're free to decide how safe or dangerous you want to be and what exactly that means for you. it's all situational.

When jugging, you don't tie stopper knots like you are suggesting here. Which is similar to what you do on the end of the rope when rappelling. You tie a figure eight or overhand knot and clip that to your harness, you do this every 15ft or so. That way if your jugs fail, you are still tied in to the rope. While it may seem like extra hassle, it only takes a couple of seconds to do, and may save your life. I'd say it's worth it.


(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Apr 9, 2009, 2:52 PM)


colatownkid


Apr 9, 2009, 2:55 PM
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Re: [Alpine07] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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Alpine07 wrote:
colatownkid wrote:
TonySF wrote:
If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I'll answer your question with a question:
Why do you tie back-up knots at all?

You tie them so that if your ascender fails, you'll stop on the knot and not just go flying off the end of the rope. If the end of your rope is already anchored to bolts down below, then you're not going to fall off the end of the rope anyway.

However, tying back-up knots frequently means that not only do you not fall off the end of the rope, but you get stopped only a few feet from the point where your ascender failed, and not all the way at the bottom of the rope (which could be hundreds of feet below).

in my personal opinion, two ascenders each attached to my harness with the rope end tied off at the bottom would be enough redundancy for me to not tie back-up knots. but you're free to decide how safe or dangerous you want to be and what exactly that means for you. it's all situational.

When jugging, you don't tie stopper knots like you are suggesting here. Which is similar to what you do on the end of the rope when rappelling. You tie a figure eight or overhand knot and clip that to your harness. That way if your jugs fail, you are still tied in to the rope.

sorry--i should have been more clear. by "stop on the knot" i mean that you would stop at the last knot that you have tied and clipped into. assuming you are tying the knots and clipping in short, this would be significantly closer than wherever the end of the rope is.

in my opinion, while a fall all the way to bolts at the bottom of the rope would be heinous, at least you're not going to go flying off the end. if tying in short is as big a pain as the OP made it out to be for his/her particular situation, then i would probably choose not to use them since the two ascenders essentially back each other up (provided they're both attached to your harness).


sspssp


Apr 9, 2009, 3:01 PM
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Re: [colatownkid] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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colatownkid wrote:
in my opinion, while a fall all the way to bolts at the bottom of the rope would be heinous, at least you're not going to go flying off the end.

No you don't fly off the end. You come to a static stop/splat when you hit the bolts (as opposed to yo-yo-ing when you come to your last clipped knot).

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof). The grigri backup while far from fail proof, is some added safety with almost no added hassle.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 9, 2009, 3:03 PM)


colatownkid


Apr 9, 2009, 3:19 PM
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Re: [sspssp] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:
colatownkid wrote:
in my opinion, while a fall all the way to bolts at the bottom of the rope would be heinous, at least you're not going to go flying off the end.

No you don't fly off the end. You come to a static stop/splat when you hit the bolts (as opposed to yo-yo-ing when you come to your last clipped knot).

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof). The grigri backup while far from fail proof, is some added safety with almost no added hassle.

sspssp wrote:
colatownkid wrote:
you're not going to go flying off the end.

right, that's exactly what i said--you don't go flying off the end, you stop on the bolts.

but if you were to ascend the line and it was not anchored and you were not tying back-up knots then you would go flying off the end. (of course, that assumes that you were not anchored to the bolts and you were also not tied in to the end of the rope.)

anyway, i'm not arguing your use of a grigri. it's a good solution. i'm just saying that in that particular situation with no traversing, i could understand the desire not to use back-up knots.


shimanilami


Apr 9, 2009, 3:26 PM
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Re: [sspssp] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:
Safety is a matter of tradeoffs and personal opinion. Is any climbing/jugging safe?

But as a suggestion as to what I would do, I would connect my grigri below the jugs and call it good to go.

Bingo. This is the Better Way.


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 9, 2009, 4:09 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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Not saying the grigri is not correct. I use a prussik slid ahead by the top jug when I'm on a fixed line. Reasoning goes like this. I fumble a cam open, and in haste haven't got the other jug perfect and I slip, only as far as the prussik, as a ride to the end of fixed line, with a static attachment to the jug, in my opinion would just sever the rope with no deceleration.
Grigri gives the same result, but below the potential point of sever.
It may be redundant redundant, but hey, what's your life worth?
Bob


potreroed


Apr 9, 2009, 4:25 PM
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I jumar many hundreds of feet on a regular basis and have never found knots to be necessary, and a gri-gri below the jumars would be an incredible pain in the ass. Just make sure you're daisyed in and go.


sspssp


Apr 9, 2009, 4:38 PM
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Re: [potreroed] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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potreroed wrote:
I jumar many hundreds of feet on a regular basis and have never found knots to be necessary, and a gri-gri below the jumars would be an incredible pain in the ass. Just make sure you're daisyed in and go.

Yea, a grigri below the jugs can make it harder to slide the bottom jug up. Still easier than tieing and re-tieing knots every 10 feet. A prussiac above the jugs is also an option, but I have more faith with the grigri. And depending on the pitch, I might use one jug and one grigri.

potreroed wrote:
I jumar many hundreds of feet on a regular basis and have never found knots to be necessary

I've climbed hundreds of pitches without falling. If I go back and climb them again, should I skip bringing a rope? Wink


shimanilami


Apr 9, 2009, 4:42 PM
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I like the grigri approach especially for cleaning traverses. You can pull tight with the grigri, then move both jugs above the last piece, then weight the jugs by releasing the grigri, and then clean the piece.

(Sorry for the thread drift. We were talking about jugging fixed lines ...)


potreroed


Apr 9, 2009, 9:54 PM
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Re: [sspssp] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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I repeat: no knots, no gri-gri, except maybe when on a tricky traverse. We're talking about jumaring, not free climbing. When free climbing you have a choice of rope or no rope. Take your pick.


(This post was edited by potreroed on Apr 9, 2009, 9:56 PM)


russwalling


Apr 9, 2009, 11:36 PM
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Re: [sspssp] backup knots while jugging [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof).

Do you have a source for this?


TonySF


Apr 10, 2009, 11:59 AM
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I can't visualize how ascenders can twist or otherwise come off the rope while jugging if the ascenders have biners at the top holding them on to the rope. Can you describe how this happens? (I'm assuming the ascenders are attached to the climber with daisy chains.)

The biggest risk I can picture is one of the ascender cams getting locked open, so the ascender slides down the rope. With two ascenders, it would require both of them becoming locked open at the same time.

Or am I missing something?


sspssp


Apr 10, 2009, 1:15 PM
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russwalling wrote:
sspssp wrote:

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof).

Do you have a source for this?

Hhmm. I thought I had read of accidents of this sort. In particular, I had thought there was at least one on ElCap (late 80's?, early 90's?) where someone jugging a clean line (not cleaning pro) and no obvious roofs was killed. But if this really sounds like news to someone with your level of experience, I'll reconsider the confidence of my memories (or browse through old archives if I get really motivated).

But while you are here, what's your suggestion for the OP?


(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 10, 2009, 1:17 PM)


sspssp


Apr 10, 2009, 1:19 PM
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TonySF wrote:
I can't visualize how ascenders can twist or otherwise come off the rope while jugging if the ascenders have biners at the top holding them on to the rope. Can you describe how this happens? (I'm assuming the ascenders are attached to the climber with daisy chains.)

The biggest risk I can picture is one of the ascender cams getting locked open, so the ascender slides down the rope.

Yea, I shouldn't have glibly thrown out the "twisting off", since in the context of whether you need a backup or not, locking in the open position is just as bad.


krusher4


Apr 10, 2009, 1:45 PM
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ok lets see 200 ft of rope a knot every 30-40 feet.....yeah that's not really going to take too much time to untie. Maybe a couple extra is there's a ledge you could fall onto. 2 mins time, could save your life...but that's just me I don't want to die climbing.


russwalling


Apr 10, 2009, 2:35 PM
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sspssp wrote:
russwalling wrote:
sspssp wrote:

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof).

Do you have a source for this?

Hhmm. I thought I had read of accidents of this sort. In particular, I had thought there was at least one on ElCap (late 80's?, early 90's?) where someone jugging a clean line (not cleaning pro) and no obvious roofs was killed. But if this really sounds like news to someone with your level of experience, I'll reconsider the confidence of my memories (or browse through old archives if I get really motivated).

But while you are here, what's your suggestion for the OP?

If the lines are fixed lines, like to Sickle, with each end tied to an anchor, I never tie any knots. It is just not practical, and I've never heard of a case where both ascenders have come off a rope in this scenario. You can push a prussik or whatever you want, but I just don't see the need. Two Jumars or whatever are just not going to pop off... but when you pass a station, and are clipping to the new line, don't stand there on on one Jumar without clipping into the anchor. ( or using some other sort of back up until you get both ascenders onto the new cord)


machino


Apr 10, 2009, 2:47 PM
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Generally, I don't use any back ups because it slows things down and two jugs both attached to me via easy dasies seems pretty decent. The gri-gri method slows ths process down even further. An alternative that I sometimes use is a mini traxion as you don't have to feed it (it starts feeding nicely after about 20 feet).


wolfdog


Apr 12, 2009, 10:46 PM
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Most people rapping and then jugging to Sickle Ledge don't fix anchor to anchor, but tie 3-6o meter or 4 -50 meter ropes togather, rap off, and then jug the next morning the entire line and then haul from Sickle. So when you pass the knots on jumar, there is no anchor to tie into. So you just make sure your jumar is seated on the rope so that you can bump one over the knot. I think using a grigri would be very slow going. But for dicy traversing stuff, I can see it.


majid_sabet


Apr 12, 2009, 11:51 PM
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USnavy


Apr 13, 2009, 12:37 AM
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TonySF wrote:
If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I am going to vote no. If youíre doing it right you will have a minimal of two ascenders / knots between you and the rope. So you already have a back-up if one fails. If the extremely improbable strikes you and for some reason both ascenders start to slide down the rope itís very likely the teeth will destroy the rope before you hit the end anyway.


moof


Apr 13, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Caver's jug lines all the time with just 2 points of attachment. However they tend to make the rest of their rig burlier than climber's do. For example caver's use adjustable "Cow's Tails" which are something like a chunk of 9-11mm static line with a prussik knot for adjusting their length, which by far is stronger than a daisy. On the third hand I've never heard of a daisy breaking while jugging. YMMV.;

My suggestion is that if you are flying with no backup look at the whole chain of how you are attached, it's more than just your 2 ascenders keeping you in the air. Make sure you are comfortable with the safety factors of all gear involved, two raspy old daisy chains as my only attachements to the world is not enough for my mind, it may be in yours. For fixed lines also consider trailing a mini-traxion or basic ascender as a third point of attachment.


potreroed


Apr 15, 2009, 7:45 AM
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My suggestion if your daisy chains are old and raspy is to buy new ones.

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