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Fa310tx
Apr 17, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Do people belay from the top of the cliff? Obviously, they would need to be anchored to something. Is this worse than anchoring for a top-rope with a belay at the bottom?
It would seem like less work and you'd only need 1/2 the rope.
JJ
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vegastradguy
Apr 17, 2009, 5:56 PM
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Fa310tx wrote: Do people belay from the top of the cliff? Obviously, they would need to be anchored to something. Is this worse than anchoring for a top-rope with a belay at the bottom? It would seem like less work and you'd only need 1/2 the rope. JJ
sure, people belay from up top all the time.
it tends to be situational- if you've got a group or are going to be doing laps on a climb, a belay from the bottom is usually the best option.
if you're only doing it once or the climb wanders quite a bit, or the cliff just sort of dictates it, a top belay may be best.
it really isnt better or worse, it just depends on the needs/wants of the climbers.
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suilenroc
Apr 17, 2009, 5:59 PM
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Top belaying is quite common. Used mostly for multi-pitch climbing. You can also use a Top Belay if there isn't a way to anchor the rope over the edge of the climb (lessens the rope dragging over the edge).
Belaying from the bottom has some advantages when Top roping.
1. You can see the climber.
2. Switching between belaying and climbing is faster and easier.
Hope this helps!
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acorneau
Apr 17, 2009, 6:02 PM
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Fa310tx wrote: Do people belay from the top of the cliff? Obviously, they would need to be anchored to something. Is this worse than anchoring for a top-rope with a belay at the bottom? It would seem like less work and you'd only need 1/2 the rope. JJ
Yes, some circumstances dictate a top belay (vs. a slingshot/bottom belay).
Yes, the belayer needs to be anchored and more often then not, the belay system is either directly on the anchor (ATC Guide/Reverso/Munter) or the rope is re-directed through the anchor. There are other circumstances which dictates the belay be directly off the belayer.
Yes, you only need enough rope for the length of your climb (plus extra for tying in, etc.).
"Less work", not really. With proper practice (and training) it can be just about as easy as a bottom belay; or it can be a royal pain in the butt.
I'm sure you can find many threads about top belays via the search function.
(This post was edited by acorneau on Apr 17, 2009, 6:03 PM)
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kachoong
Apr 17, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Yep... I prefer to belay from the top when:
-My partner does not know how to clean the anchors. It saves me having to re-climb the route after they have top-roped it. This saves time in the long run to do more routes.
-I can give my (learning) partner a feel for a hanging belay if we're going to be subsequently doing a multi-pitch.
-The top-rope setup would be complicated by the presence of an edge and I don't have the necessary slings to set up a good top-rope.
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bill413
Apr 17, 2009, 6:56 PM
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As others have said, it's situational. Some cliffs & climbs are more amenable to belaying from the top, others from the bottom. Things that lead you to belay from the top are: long climb (longer than half a rope); bad stances at the bottom, better places at the top; some cliffs you lower the climber down & they climb back up; can't get good anchors for a social belay, but can get them for a top belay; and, of course, almost always in multipitch climbing.
It's a good thing to learn how to do....most old timers probably started with belaying from the top, then came back to the lower ground.
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chopperjohn
Apr 17, 2009, 8:37 PM
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Do it all the time when i'm to chicken shit to onsight a route a 100+. Good practice for multi pitch climbs and you have a chance to hang your ass in the breeze. It also opens up more route for you that a lot of top ropers will not do due to inexperience in anchor building. That is if you access to the top.
(This post was edited by chopperjohn on Apr 17, 2009, 8:40 PM)
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Fa310tx
Apr 17, 2009, 9:47 PM
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Hehehe...
I'm glad that I wasn't thinking weird. I know a lot of the cliffs, around Branson, go up 20' and then are flat for 5'-10'. They do that, sometimes, 40'-80'. I thought it would be cool to just walk up to a flat part and belay.
Someone mentioned connecting the belay device to the anchor. Is that better than to your harness and your harness to the anchor? Would the belayer even need a harness, at that point?
JJ
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ladyscarlett
Apr 17, 2009, 9:48 PM
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bill413 wrote: As others have said, it's situational. Some cliffs & climbs are more amenable to belaying from the top, others from the bottom. Things that lead you to belay from the top are: long climb (longer than half a rope); bad stances at the bottom, better places at the top; some cliffs you lower the climber down & they climb back up; can't get good anchors for a social belay, but can get them for a top belay; and, of course, almost always in multipitch climbing. It's a good thing to learn how to do....most old timers probably started with belaying from the top, then came back to the lower ground.
Social Belay? I've probably come across this, just never heard it...curious.
I think most of the belaying I do is from the top. I don't know why, but I do know that my group likes to top out, however big the group is (though no more than 4). Unspoken rule that the first person up will belay the others up...unless there's a newbie who needs the practice - like me! Then we all enjoy the view from the top, have a drink, etc.
It's definitely situational, but belaying from the top gives you a nice view and the time to really let the climb and awesome perch sink in. And definitely good practice for multipitch.
I will say this, when belaying from the top, directly from the harness, catching a fall feels different, not a bad thing to be acquainted with, I think.
give it a try someday!
cheers
ls
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bill413
Apr 17, 2009, 10:11 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: bill413 wrote: social belaySocial Belay? I've probably come across this, just never heard it...curious. ... but I do know that my group likes to top out, however big the group is (though no more than 4). Unspoken rule that the first person up will belay the others up...unless there's a newbie who needs the practice - like me! Then we all enjoy the view from the top, have a drink, etc. It's definitely situational, but belaying from the top gives you a nice view and the time to really let the climb and awesome perch sink in.
Somehow missed those great reasons for top belay - the view is almost always better (well, of the outdoors).
"Social Belay" - the term for the belayer & climber both at the same level, the rope running up to the anchors, pulleyd (somehow), back down to the climber. The term comes from the fact that they can socialize before the climb (both on the ground) and better visibility & communication (usually) during the climb. Almost all gym climbing is social belay.
Basically, the other way besides belaying from the top.
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bill413
Apr 17, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Fa310tx wrote: Someone mentioned connecting the belay device to the anchor. Is that better than to your harness and your harness to the anchor? Would the belayer even need a harness, at that point? JJ
Well...it depends 
Most guides are emphasizing connecting it to the anchor instead of the harness (for some pretty good reasons), but part of their insistence is due to the difference between guiding & non-guiding. Still, it's a very good way to go. However, if the anchor isn't great, or isn't in the right place for it, it may be better to belay off your harness.
Either way, you really, really, really want to be tied in. You're on top of a cliff! And not paying attention to where you are...you're focused on the belay (well, in theory). For most of us, that means yes, you do need a harness.
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clc
Apr 18, 2009, 5:26 AM
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shit dude. you need more than a harness or simple TR advice. You really should have an experienced climber or instructor show you how to climb..
yikes
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Becknology
Apr 22, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Hanging a GriGri directly from the master point to belay the second is brilliant! So easy. Look.
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Terry2124
Apr 22, 2009, 10:43 PM
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Becknology wrote: Hanging a GriGri directly from the master point to belay the second is brilliant! So easy. Look. [image]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ri2BScVJCcs/Se6fPinSJnI/AAAAAAAACz4/_7V6CAYSwyQ/s640/HPIM1329.jpg[/image]
GG's don't always lock. It would be better to belay off your harness and run the rope through a biner at the main point.
What if you have to give slack and it locks up, at least on your harness its in reach and better control
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Becknology
Apr 22, 2009, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: GG's don't always lock...
People don't always lock. No system is perfect. But a GriGri is less likely to fail than a person.
In reply to: What if you have to give slack and it locks up, at least on your harness its in reach and better control
Giving slack is as simple as pulling the lever. And who said anything about not being able to reach it? It's as simple as standing/hanging right next to the master point. Extend it out if you need to.
Plus if you are belaying from your harness and you have to, for whatever reason, escape the belay, this becomes complicated and time-consuming. But with a GriGri on the master point, there is no belay escape at all because your body is already out of the system. If you need to descend to the climber or do a raise or whatever, it's as simple as tying a knot in the belay end and the climber is then locked off. No belay escape necessary.
The only down side to belaying directly from the master point is that a fall will put more load on the anchor than it would if you were belaying from your harness and through the master point. But if you have a sound anchor, a few hundred pounds of force is nothing to worry about.
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Rudmin
Apr 23, 2009, 12:37 AM
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Becknology wrote: The only down side to belaying directly from the master point is that a fall will put more load on the anchor than it would if you were belaying from your harness and through the master point. But if you have a sound anchor, a few hundred pounds of force is nothing to worry about.
I would think it would be the exact opposite of what you said. When you belay directly off of the master point, you are loading the anchor with the entire force of a fall. When you belay off your harness and redirect the rope through the master point, you are loading the anchor with double the force of a fall (minus friction) because of the pulley effect.
For bringing up a second it doesn't really matter either way because fall forces should be small, but if that person leads on the same setup, there is the chance of a short factor 2 on the anchor.
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ladyscarlett
Apr 23, 2009, 12:47 AM
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just waiting for the
"belay from the anchor or harness" discussion.
It is interesting to see how many different circumstances really end up being "it depends."
we'll see!
ls
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theguy
Apr 23, 2009, 12:53 AM
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Rudmin wrote: Becknology wrote: The only down side to belaying directly from the master point is that a fall will put more load on the anchor than it would if you were belaying from your harness and through the master point. I would think it would be the exact opposite of what you said.
Correct. For those who are unsure of when to use which type of belay, you'd be well advised to read "Climbing Anchors" rather than get into the discussion which Lady Scarlett is anticipating.
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Becknology
Apr 23, 2009, 2:27 AM
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I believe you guys are right. My mistake. 
The pulley effect will load the anchor more than a GriGri clipped directly to the master point because with a belay from the harness, there is the possibility of two people (climber & belayer) hanging on the anchor.
But you're also right in that the load in a top rope scenario is so minimal, that this consideration is really irrelevant.
Either method is safe, but I still prefer some sort of auto-locking device clipped directly to the master point.
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Terry2124
Apr 23, 2009, 2:57 AM
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Becknology wrote: In reply to: GG's don't always lock... don't always lock. No system is perfect. But a GriGri is less likely to fail than a person. In reply to: What if you have to give slack and it locks up, at least on your harness its in reach and better control Giving slack is as simple as pulling the lever. And who said anything about not being able to reach it? It's as simple as standing/hanging right next to the master point. Extend it out if you need to. Plus if you are belaying from your harness and you have to, for whatever reason, escape the belay, this becomes complicated and time-consuming. But with a GriGri on the master point, there is no belay escape at all because your body is already out of the system. If you need to descend to the climber or do a raise or whatever, it's as simple as tying a knot in the belay end and the climber is then locked off. No belay escape necessary. The only down side to belaying directly from the master point is that a fall will put more load on the anchor than it would if you were belaying from your harness and through the master point. But if you have a sound anchor, a few hundred pounds of force is nothing to worry about.
Yes I was referring to the pic above, the belayer is not really in reach of the grigri
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Terry2124
Apr 23, 2009, 3:01 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: just waiting for the "belay from the anchor or harness" discussion. It is interesting to see how many different circumstances really end up being "it depends." we'll see! ls
Hmmm yes it could be a wild discussion.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 23, 2009, 3:34 AM
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Terry2124 wrote: Becknology wrote: In reply to: GG's don't always lock... don't always lock. No system is perfect. But a GriGri is less likely to fail than a person. In reply to: What if you have to give slack and it locks up, at least on your harness its in reach and better control Giving slack is as simple as pulling the lever. And who said anything about not being able to reach it? It's as simple as standing/hanging right next to the master point. Extend it out if you need to. Plus if you are belaying from your harness and you have to, for whatever reason, escape the belay, this becomes complicated and time-consuming. But with a GriGri on the master point, there is no belay escape at all because your body is already out of the system. If you need to descend to the climber or do a raise or whatever, it's as simple as tying a knot in the belay end and the climber is then locked off. No belay escape necessary. The only down side to belaying directly from the master point is that a fall will put more load on the anchor than it would if you were belaying from your harness and through the master point. But if you have a sound anchor, a few hundred pounds of force is nothing to worry about. Yes I was referring to the pic above, the belayer is not really in reach of the grigri
He's like a foot away from it.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
Apr 23, 2009, 4:22 PM
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GriGris are nice an all, but the fact that you can't belay twin ropes with them keeps me from spending the cash for one. I prefer the Reverso or ATC Guide belay devices (used in autoblock mode) for top belays.
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