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59old_trad


Apr 19, 2009, 11:43 AM
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Climbing Decisions/Epics
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How many climbers have made poor climbing choices while climbing, turning a casual climbing day into an epic adventure that may or may not involve a rescue? How many climbers have climbed while high on pot or intoxicated? And how many climbers climb not knowing much about the partners he/she is climbing with to know if they are safe?

I was about to climb with a guy once until he lit a joint. I would not get into a car with someone who is high and I would definitely not let someone belay me high.

It is never fun to end a climb with the thought of being lucky to be alive. Some friends of mine forgot to bring head lamps and ended up rappelling 11-pitches in the dark in RR (18-hr climbing day) with their rope getting stuck several times. On the second to last rappel, the rope was really stuck and one person even considered down climbing in the dark since it was only a 5.8 climb (Crimson Chysalis).

What stupid things did you do on climbs that have turned into epics or possible epics? What are your criteria of an unsafe climber?


(This post was edited by 59old_trad on Apr 19, 2009, 11:56 AM)


billl7


Apr 19, 2009, 12:05 PM
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Re: [59old_trad] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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Hmmm, you didn't mention the stupid things you have done.Tongue

Me?
* Not knowing my turnaround time and so being forced to rap ~5 pitches after sunset. (edit: planning for that is one thing; simply not watching the time is another.)
* Getting overly impatient with my partner.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Apr 19, 2009, 12:07 PM)


billl7


Apr 19, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Re: [59old_trad] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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Criteria for unsafe climber ... Well, there are absolute no-no's such as the one you mention. Otherwise, there are a large number of things which to me would fit the criteria of an unsafe climber - usually, it is some combination of lack of mechanical sense, lack of self awareness, or lack of sufficent attention to detail plus the big picture.


sungam


Apr 19, 2009, 2:31 PM
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Re: [59old_trad] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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On a mixed root on book-hill-eht-iv-more I was gearing up for my hardest mixed lead (trad) I've done still to date. I was scared as shit, obviously. My partner started rolling a J and scorched it up. I didn't smoke any, but the fact he felt so confident in me that he would scorch up while belaying me made me confident, and I climbed it feeling good. I never once worried about his ability to perform under the influence.

I've also climbed with completely sober people who had a retarded "it'll be fine" attitude at the wrong moments who I shant climb with again.


bill413


Apr 19, 2009, 3:46 PM
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1) Going climbing (to a larger area) with someone who'd I seen climb once. Despoite the fact that he knew other climbers were around, and soloing traverses, he would throw the rope down without calling "rope." Many people informed him that this was not a good thing to do...but the behavior was repeated.

I did not go climbing with him again.


areyoumydude


Apr 19, 2009, 3:51 PM
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Re: [sungam] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
On a mixed root on book-hill-eht-iv-more I was gearing up for my hardest mixed lead (trad) I've done still to date. I was scared as shit, obviously. My partner started rolling a J and scorched it up. I didn't smoke any, but the fact he felt so confident in me that he would scorch up while belaying me made me confident, and I climbed it feeling good. I never once worried about his ability to perform under the influence.

I wish you would have told me that on ancient art. I was jonesin' hard. Although I didn't have that much confidence in you either.Tongue


milesenoell


Apr 19, 2009, 5:46 PM
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HAHAHAhahahaha, whew, ahahahaha.

Let me paraphrase:

"Ever made a decision that mattered in a situation that you didn't have complete knowledge of?

I'm uncomfortable around people who smoke pot.

I have friends who forgot their headlamps and almost epiced.

Sound like anybody you know?"


In reply: Yes, climbing is well known for precipitating situations in which we are inclined to make very serious decisions without the benefit of full knowledge of our situation or the techniques we may be employing. (many of us actually enjoy the chance to use critical thinking and problem solving techniques.)

That's fine, I'm uncomfortable around uptight people.

Always bring your headlamp, eh?

Luckily, no, I only seem to climb with people who have their shit together.


potreroed


Apr 21, 2009, 1:06 PM
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I used to climb and drive stoned on weed all the time--never had even a close call. In fact, I always felt more alert and tuned in when high.

Two years ago I made a poor decision climbing--while perfectly sober--that required a rescue and caused me many months of pain.

Rappelling in the dark with no headlamp?? Done that many times--don't consider that an epic.

The main thing I watch for in a new partner is how they belay.


Partner angry


Apr 21, 2009, 1:54 PM
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potreroed wrote:
I used to climb and drive stoned on weed all the time--never had even a close call. In fact, I always felt more alert and tuned in when high.

Two years ago I made a poor decision climbing--while perfectly sober--that required a rescue and caused me many months of pain.

Rappelling in the dark with no headlamp?? Done that many times--don't consider that an epic.

The main thing I watch for in a new partner is how they belay.

I can't remember the whole story but didn't your partner catch one hell of a fall on that, so much so that he knocked himself out on an overhang above you and a grigri stopped you from sliding down all the way to his knot or ground or something worse?


kachoong


Apr 21, 2009, 1:58 PM
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Was quite a newbie to the sport and was out on a two pitch granite trad line. The sun was close to the horizon and I was getting nervous as my two wasted partners were bringing me up the final pitch. I reached the belay, which was a comfortable ledge and they began to set up the rappel....

Their encouraging conversation was as follows:

#1 "Here, give me the blue rope.... not that end the other end."
#2 "What, this end?"... holding up the end of the red rope.
#1 "Fuck, no man, you idiot, the other one"
#2 "This one?"... holding the other end of the red rope.
#1 "Oh crap, give it to me"... taking the red rope and threading the end through the anchor.
#2 "I thought you wanted the blue rope?"
#1 "I did!! Ohh crap, you gave me the red rope!"
#2 "You took it from me, man! Don't look at me! Dave, didn't he ask for blue?"

... I shrug and get more nervous as the sun sets. I stare off into the orange glow of the distorted sun partially eclipsed by the horizon.

#1 "OK, here... throw the ends down!"
#2 "Sweet man... nice throw! ......wait, did you tie the ends?"
#1 "I dunno, dude, that was your job!"
Me: "Were you guys supposed to thread the blue rope?"
#2 "I was throwing the ropes, you said you'd tie the ends."
#1 "Fuck, you idiot, you rap first then!"
#2 "No worries, dude, we got this."...looks at the knot... "Wait, I'm not rapping on that!"
#1 "On what? It's a double fisherman's you doofus!"
#2 "It's got no tails!"
#1 "What do you mean? The tails are fine!" Holding up a good three feet of tails.
Me: "Umm... why did you want to thread the blue rope?"
#2 "Cos it's a single rope and the red one is a double..... Oh fuck!"... realizing they threaded the wrong rope....

...ad nauseam...

We made it down... lucky the moon was out... and in celebration of Terra Firma they lit up another scooby doo! LaughCrazy


potreroed


Apr 21, 2009, 3:34 PM
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Re: [angry] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I used to climb and drive stoned on weed all the time--never had even a close call. In fact, I always felt more alert and tuned in when high.

Two years ago I made a poor decision climbing--while perfectly sober--that required a rescue and caused me many months of pain.

Rappelling in the dark with no headlamp?? Done that many times--don't consider that an epic.

The main thing I watch for in a new partner is how they belay.

I can't remember the whole story but didn't your partner catch one hell of a fall on that, so much so that he knocked himself out on an overhang above you and a grigri stopped you from sliding down all the way to his knot or ground or something worse?

Yeah, we were 10 pitches up on a new route and Rusty (Baillie), who normally boulders in a helmet, forgot his lid. We figured he would be safe because he was off to the side and under a small overhang. Then I made the mistake of trying to climb over some loose blocks, instead of taking the time to go around them, and when he caught the huge fall he got pulled up into the overhang and knocked out cold. Monsieur gri-gri saved the day.


majid_sabet


Apr 21, 2009, 4:55 PM
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I climbed once with two guys from my gym who I thought they knew what they were doing but then on the wall some 10 pitches up I find out that both of them spend a night on the same wall the year before for not having a light to locate their rap route.Now a year later, one of them finds a bag of rope at P5 while I was on P6 cleaning and he decides to carry it down . once we got down (near dusk) to base, I noticed this extra bag and wonder where it came from but then I heard people yelling from above;

hey hey, guys

you guys seen a rope bag down there?

Anyway, the climbing party above lost their cam and left one of their rope bags on P5 to go and locate their lost cam but luckily , they had another rope and they used it between the the shorter rap routes to get down but I learned my lesson.

Do not ever climb with dumb fuc*s cause, they could either kill you,kill themselves or kill someone else.


boku


Apr 21, 2009, 5:57 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I climbed once with two guys from my gym who I thought they knew what they were doing but then on the wall some 10 pitches up I find out that both of them spend a night on the same wall the year before for not having a light to locate their rap route...

Well, it looks like we're going to be seeing this story again and again, so I might as well go on record:

I was one of the two climbers who spent the night on a ledge at Royal Arches Rap 8. That was 20/21 August 2005, and the temperatures were quite moderate, so we just hunkered down on a ledge to wait for the sun. We'd specifically chosen that weekend because it offered a nearly full moon rising about an hour after sundown, and we could probably have found the rest of the raps in moonlight. We didn't stop because it was the only thing to do, we stopped because it was the safest thing to do under the circumstances. We had a cell phone, we'd alerted my family to our situation, and made sure they knew how to contact YOSAR if we didn't turn up in the morning. It was inconvenient and a bit uncomfortable, but hardly life-threatening and we had several layers of contingency in reserve.

I don't understand why Majid says he didn't find about this epic until our Royal Arches repeat of 30 September 2006, since we told the story widely among the climbers at City Beach in Fremont, CA where we used to climb with Majid.

As for the rope found on 30 Sept 06, Jeff or Majid found it on the bench atop P1 where the rap route crosses the climbing route, and decided we'd take it with us.

This Update on my glider project Web site has a brief TR on the 30 Sept 06 RA climb, and a couple of pictures, including one of Majid:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...ate_9_october_06.htm

There's another picture of Majid at the SAR Cache (and also Werner Braun) in this Update:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...update_22_oct_07.htm

Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.


hansundfritz


Apr 22, 2009, 9:46 AM
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Reminds me of a tree crew I once worked on (for ONE day). Dudes sparked it up at lunch-time and then proceeded to climb trees with chain saws, etc. Scary day on the job -- dodging limbs from above. Other guys were dropping whole trees -- almost on me, almost on the truck, almost on the chipper. And they laughed about it. "Sorry man... my bad." It was like a Cheech and Chong movie gone wrong with me starring as the unfortunate straight guy.

Mixing hippy lettuce with chain saws is not smart.


disgruntledbare


Apr 22, 2009, 10:17 AM
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i smoke 2 joints before i climb anything.


dingus


Apr 22, 2009, 10:39 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
I climbed once with two guys from my gym who I thought they knew what they were doing but then on the wall some 10 pitches up I find out that both of them spend a night on the same wall the year before for not having a light to locate their rap route.Now a year later, one of them finds a bag of rope at P5 while I was on P6 cleaning and he decides to carry it down . once we got down (near dusk) to base, I noticed this extra bag and wonder where it came from but then I heard people yelling from above;

hey hey, guys

you guys seen a rope bag down there?

Anyway, the climbing party above lost their cam and left one of their rope bags on P5 to go and locate their lost cam but luckily , they had another rope and they used it between the the shorter rap routes to get down but I learned my lesson.

Do not ever climb with dumb fuc*s cause, they could either kill you,kill themselves or kill someone else.

Sounds very traumatic. You're luck you survived. Bob is a killer. He had the nerve to tie in with first Angus, then me. That makes him suspect right there as we were really both blazed at the time.

Unplanned bivis, majid, are a rite of passage and once done, something to look back on with some measure of 'I survive it' pride.

My friend Brutus proudly (and I mean PROUDLY) recounts his 'unplanned bivis' as full-experience character builders.

Bob you had a night out, unscathed and continued your descent in the morning. This is all good and proper. Accepting the situation and making the best of it is totally in line with the climbing mentality.

I might have continued to slug it out... and all likelihood WOULD have. See I have this anxiety about unplanned bivis... and even though I try to put my self in a more accepting headspace sometimes the thought of an unplanned night out is simply unmanagable for me.

Perhaps Majid harbors those same claustrophobic fears (loss of control, trapped, immobile - I have a genuine deep seated fear of getting trapped and I have to manage, work with and sometimes fight that fear as it can lead to faulty decisions, like trging to continue a descent when you're somewhat misplaced if not lost, have no headlamp and its friggin dark too)

That a SAR guy would fault someone for choosing to sit tight rather than perhaps go on to become a stat (and a half-legible accident report) is pretty funny.

Majid to you stab all your partners in the back... or just some of them?

DMT


majid_sabet


Apr 22, 2009, 2:51 PM
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Re: [boku] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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boku wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I climbed once with two guys from my gym who I thought they knew what they were doing but then on the wall some 10 pitches up I find out that both of them spend a night on the same wall the year before for not having a light to locate their rap route...

Well, it looks like we're going to be seeing this story again and again, so I might as well go on record:

I was one of the two climbers who spent the night on a ledge at Royal Arches Rap 8. That was 20/21 August 2005, and the temperatures were quite moderate, so we just hunkered down on a ledge to wait for the sun. We'd specifically chosen that weekend because it offered a nearly full moon rising about an hour after sundown, and we could probably have found the rest of the raps in moonlight. We didn't stop because it was the only thing to do, we stopped because it was the safest thing to do under the circumstances. We had a cell phone, we'd alerted my family to our situation, and made sure they knew how to contact YOSAR if we didn't turn up in the morning. It was inconvenient and a bit uncomfortable, but hardly life-threatening and we had several layers of contingency in reserve.

I don't understand why Majid says he didn't find about this epic until our Royal Arches repeat of 30 September 2006, since we told the story widely among the climbers at City Beach in Fremont, CA where we used to climb with Majid.

As for the rope found on 30 Sept 06, Jeff or Majid found it on the bench atop P1 where the rap route crosses the climbing route, and decided we'd take it with us.

This Update on my glider project Web site has a brief TR on the 30 Sept 06 RA climb, and a couple of pictures, including one of Majid:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...ate_9_october_06.htm

There's another picture of Majid at the SAR Cache (and also Werner Braun) in this Update:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...update_22_oct_07.htm

Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.

I think what you did bob for not down climbing on RA was the right thing cause last thing you wanted to do was killing yourself on RA . Also I was one pitch higher than you guys when jeff pick that rope up so I did not know about it till I met you guys at p1. Also, those two climbers were on p2 but not P1 when yelled for their rope . I was also upset about you guys trying to rush back to lodge for pizza instead of thinking about plan B to get the rope back to Canadian climbers.

Luckily, they had another rope to rap otherwise, I could not count on you two as partners to go back on the wall to save them from freezing their as*es off.


Regards


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 22, 2009, 2:53 PM)


Terry2124


Apr 22, 2009, 3:01 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
boku wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I climbed once with two guys from my gym who I thought they knew what they were doing but then on the wall some 10 pitches up I find out that both of them spend a night on the same wall the year before for not having a light to locate their rap route...

Well, it looks like we're going to be seeing this story again and again, so I might as well go on record:

I was one of the two climbers who spent the night on a ledge at Royal Arches Rap 8. That was 20/21 August 2005, and the temperatures were quite moderate, so we just hunkered down on a ledge to wait for the sun. We'd specifically chosen that weekend because it offered a nearly full moon rising about an hour after sundown, and we could probably have found the rest of the raps in moonlight. We didn't stop because it was the only thing to do, we stopped because it was the safest thing to do under the circumstances. We had a cell phone, we'd alerted my family to our situation, and made sure they knew how to contact YOSAR if we didn't turn up in the morning. It was inconvenient and a bit uncomfortable, but hardly life-threatening and we had several layers of contingency in reserve.

I don't understand why Majid says he didn't find about this epic until our Royal Arches repeat of 30 September 2006, since we told the story widely among the climbers at City Beach in Fremont, CA where we used to climb with Majid.

As for the rope found on 30 Sept 06, Jeff or Majid found it on the bench atop P1 where the rap route crosses the climbing route, and decided we'd take it with us.

This Update on my glider project Web site has a brief TR on the 30 Sept 06 RA climb, and a couple of pictures, including one of Majid:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...ate_9_october_06.htm

There's another picture of Majid at the SAR Cache (and also Werner Braun) in this Update:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/...update_22_oct_07.htm

Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.

I think what you did bob for not down climbing on RA was the right thing cause last thing you wanted to do was killing yourself on RA . Also I was one pitch higher than you guys when jeff pick that rope up so I did not know about it till I met you guys at p1. Also, those two climbers were on p2 but not P1 when yelled for their rope . I was also upset about you guys trying to rush back to lodge for pizza instead of thinking about plan B to get the rope back to Canadian climbers.

Luckily, they had another rope to rap otherwise, I could not count on you two as partners to go back on the wall to save them from freezing their as*es off.


Regards




And let the pizza get cold?


Its nice you were thinking about helping climbers. Many people wouldn't give a shit.


mecalekahi-mekahidyho


Apr 22, 2009, 4:37 PM
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I have been climbing for nearly 2 years and climb high 99% of the time.

I go every weekend and up to twice a week outdoors. Usually sport/multipitch, but I throw some bouldering in there.

Never experienced an epic, neither have the group of friends I climb with (around 7 total). I dont drive high, but I ride high. Ive had a 600cc sport bike for the past 4 years which I ride everyday high. Only had one accident which was not my fault and I kept the bike upright. I have almost 45,000 miles on this bike. So I dont see any correlation between climbing high and experiencing epics.


Johnny_Fang


Apr 22, 2009, 5:28 PM
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mecalekahi-mekahidyho wrote:
I have been climbing for nearly 2 years and climb high 99% of the time.

I go every weekend and up to twice a week outdoors. Usually sport/multipitch, but I throw some bouldering in there.

Never experienced an epic, neither have the group of friends I climb with (around 7 total). I dont drive high, but I ride high. Ive had a 600cc sport bike for the past 4 years which I ride everyday high. Only had one accident which was not my fault and I kept the bike upright. I have almost 45,000 miles on this bike. So I dont see any correlation between climbing high and experiencing epics.

and cigarettes won't kill you because none of the other cigarettes you smoked killed you.


milesenoell


Apr 22, 2009, 6:40 PM
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
and cigarettes won't kill you because none of the other cigarettes you smoked killed you.

...a bit like the drive to the crag (not dead yet, but next time?)

...or like the climb itself (not dead yet, maybe next time).

(you are aware that for all the people who die of smoking related illnesses, we are still only talking about a small fraction of smokers, right?) The fraction of sober climbers who die of climbing related situations has got to be comparable.


Johnny_Fang


Apr 22, 2009, 6:55 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
and cigarettes won't kill you because none of the other cigarettes you smoked killed you.

...a bit like the drive to the crag (not dead yet, but next time?)

...or like the climb itself (not dead yet, maybe next time).

(you are aware that for all the people who die of smoking related illnesses, we are still only talking about a small fraction of smokers, right?) The fraction of sober climbers who die of climbing related situations has got to be comparable.

Absolutely. Climbing is an inherently risky game, just as most anything else in life is. Climbing has risks to it that are slightly more... intense... than most things in everyday life.

If you want to get high and climb, that's between you and your partner. I have very little problem with it. However, you would be foolish to think that getting high and climbing does not increase your risk.

We do stuff all of the time that increases our risk and it sometimes makes for a more enjoyable climb. This includes climbing multipitch, trad, running out placements, sketchy approaches, etc., but we deem these things "worth it." Smoking pot falls into that category for some people.

My only beef is with the logic "well, I smoke and climb all the time and I've never had an epic, so THERE."

That logic is, plain and simple, completely faulty and just plain stupid.

Appropriate logic is: "Yes, smoking pot and climbing increases your risk. Hundreds of studies show your reasoning ability, memory, and reaction time all suffer from smoking pot. But it is worth it to me and my partner to take that risk because we really enjoy climbing while high."


So yes--I know that driving to the crag is dangerous, I do not pretend it is not. I minimize the risk by driving safely and wearing a seatbelt. However, I'm still willing to take the risk of driving over the speed limit. But I refuse to text-and-drive or do other things that will increase the risk to an unacceptable level.

I also know climbing is dangerous, I minimize those risks in ways that I deem acceptable without destroying my enjoyment of the climb.

Minimize or increase your risks as you see fit--I have no problem with that. Just don't lie to yourself and think that you aren't increasing your risks by climbing stoned.


Terry2124


Apr 22, 2009, 7:54 PM
Post #23 of 29 (2541 views)
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
and cigarettes won't kill you because none of the other cigarettes you smoked killed you.

...a bit like the drive to the crag (not dead yet, but next time?)

...or like the climb itself (not dead yet, maybe next time).

(you are aware that for all the people who die of smoking related illnesses, we are still only talking about a small fraction of smokers, right?) The fraction of sober climbers who die of climbing related situations has got to be comparable.

Absolutely. Climbing is an inherently risky game, just as most anything else in life is. Climbing has risks to it that are slightly more... intense... than most things in everyday life.

If you want to get high and climb, that's between you and your partner. I have very little problem with it. However, you would be foolish to think that getting high and climbing does not increase your risk.

We do stuff all of the time that increases our risk and it sometimes makes for a more enjoyable climb. This includes climbing multipitch, trad, running out placements, sketchy approaches, etc., but we deem these things "worth it." Smoking pot falls into that category for some people.

My only beef is with the logic "well, I smoke and climb all the time and I've never had an epic, so THERE."

That logic is, plain and simple, completely faulty and just plain stupid.

Appropriate logic is: "Yes, smoking pot and climbing increases your risk. Hundreds of studies show your reasoning ability, memory, and reaction time all suffer from smoking pot. But it is worth it to me and my partner to take that risk because we really enjoy climbing while high."


So yes--I know that driving to the crag is dangerous, I do not pretend it is not. I minimize the risk by driving safely and wearing a seatbelt. However, I'm still willing to take the risk of driving over the speed limit. But I refuse to text-and-drive or do other things that will increase the risk to an unacceptable level.

I also know climbing is dangerous, I minimize those risks in ways that I deem acceptable without destroying my enjoyment of the climb.

Minimize or increase your risks as you see fit--I have no problem with that. Just don't lie to yourself and think that you aren't increasing your risks by climbing stoned.

I agree, mind altering substances can be dangerous during a climb.


59old_trad


Apr 22, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #24 of 29 (2519 views)
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Re: [disgruntledbare] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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disgruntledbare wrote:
i smoke 2 joints before i climb anything.
In reply to:
Interesting...I suppose it makes you climb better and harder. Why just two though? Why not three, four, or more? Let's see if there is a correlation. Could be an interesting hypothesis...the more you smoke, the better you can climb.


altelis


Apr 22, 2009, 8:50 PM
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Re: [59old_trad] Climbing Decisions/Epics [In reply to]
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59old_trad wrote:
disgruntledbare wrote:
i smoke 2 joints before i climb anything.
In reply to:
Interesting...I suppose it makes you climb better and harder. Why just two though? Why not three, four, or more? Let's see if there is a correlation. Could be an interesting hypothesis...the more you smoke, the better you can climb.


Its actually a Toyes song (covered by Marley and probably most "famously" by Sublime). Well, its not REALLY a Toyes song, but rather a (not so) clever rewording. But I wouldn't expect some one like you to get the reference....

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