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braaaaaaaadley
Apr 21, 2009, 3:10 AM
Post #26 of 42
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altelis wrote: braaaaaaaadley wrote: Keep in mind that they have just as much right to be out at the crag as you do. Um, keep in mind that in MOST places that climbing happens this statement is actually false. Most/many places require groups like the scouts to get permits. Not saying they don't, it just means they are regulated differently than you and me. AND whether you are in a group that requires a permit or not, as a group leader you have VERY different responsibilities to those around you than you would were it just you and some friends.
I was not referring to the issue from a regulatory standpoint. What I was getting at with this statement is that on public land everyone has an equal right to be there whether that person is a mountain biker, a hiker, a rock climber or a boy scout (within reason).
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 3:18 AM
Post #27 of 42
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braaaaaaaadley wrote: altelis wrote: braaaaaaaadley wrote: Keep in mind that they have just as much right to be out at the crag as you do. Um, keep in mind that in MOST places that climbing happens this statement is actually false. Most/many places require groups like the scouts to get permits. Not saying they don't, it just means they are regulated differently than you and me. AND whether you are in a group that requires a permit or not, as a group leader you have VERY different responsibilities to those around you than you would were it just you and some friends. I was not referring to the issue from a regulatory standpoint. What I was getting at with this statement is that on public land everyone has an equal right to be there whether that person is a mountain biker, a hiker, a rock climber or a boy scout (within reason).
Yes. But I wasn't only talking about regulatory issues. I also pointed out that just because people have "equal right" to be there doesn't mean that their responsibilities are the same. The mountain bike has very different responsibilities than the hikers, rock climbers, picnicer's etc.
The RIGHT to be there doesn't mean the RESPONSIBILITIES are the same across the board. We expect differing things of people depending on HOW they are using the land, and this includes whether they are using the land as a small group of two or a large group being led by a select few number of people.
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kriso9tails
Apr 21, 2009, 9:11 AM
Post #28 of 42
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altelis wrote: And watch the freaking double standard. YOU don't care what HE thinks is soft, but YOU feel its acceptable to claim "10's aren't soft and 12 yo's can't climb hard enough to get on 10's". Double. Fucking. Standard.
He didn't say that twelve-year-olds can't climb 5.10; he said you shouldn't throw them on 10s their first time out climbing.
With the amount of climbing experience the vast majority of scouts have, this statement is pretty fair.
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sandstone
Apr 21, 2009, 11:11 PM
Post #29 of 42
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The goal of Scouting is not the badges or the outings, or any of that stuff. The goal is to help boys grow into responsible men. That's a tall order.
When you see a scout group, keep in mind that the adult leaders aren't there for their own personal gratification. They are volunteering their time to help those kids. It ain't always perfect, and it ain't always pretty, but they are putting in the effort.
All too often the kids parents are not involved, and haven't put much effort into teaching responsibility themselves. That makes a tall order even taller. Are you willing to donate time to something that difficult?
If a Scout group annoys you, keep things in perspective and remember that those kids are more important than your climb. If you can't donate your time to help the kids, at least donate a little patience to help those that do.
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justroberto
Apr 21, 2009, 11:44 PM
Post #30 of 42
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Bats wrote: This is a hot topic...at Erock...
In reply to: ...I am an outdoor Girl Scout Camp Sponsor.
Do you happen to deal with any of the admin people in Austin? One of my good friends is the program director for Central Texas. I got to go help set up ropes, belay, and all that stuff for them on the Greenbelt one day last year. The girls were pretty awesome, well-behaved, responsive, and supportive. They were respectful and obedient. They brought trash bags out and cleaned up any garbage they saw lying around. It was pretty much the exact opposite experience of what happens when the Boy Scouts come a'gangbanging the wall.
In reply to: Scouting is not what it use to be...respect, honor, and country. I respect all you people who are trying to keep the scouting traditions alive. KUDOS 2 YA!
Respect is the key word. The BSA gets a deservedly bad rap because (amongst other reasons) the leaders tend to let the kids do whatever the hell they feel like doing. As long as little Jeffrey has been taught his knot and had his fun climbing already, nobody seems to care if he follows it up by throwing rocks off the top at the guy with the helmet down below...It's all about getting the little badges and not teaching any actual life skills like respect and responsibility.
(This post was edited by justroberto on Apr 22, 2009, 12:38 AM)
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NDKalltheway
Apr 22, 2009, 12:29 AM
Post #31 of 42
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Anyone who down plays young kids climbing has never spent time climbing with kids. I worked at a summer camp this past summer and it was amazing (and frustrating) to see kids scale hard climbs like its nothing. After watching an 11 year old climb a overhanging 5.10a, I will never doubt anyone's ability. Every time I belayed young campers I learned something about climbing.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Apr 22, 2009, 12:10 PM
Post #32 of 42
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sandstone wrote: If a Scout group annoys you, keep things in perspective and remember that those kids are more important than your climb. If you can't donate your time to help the kids, at least donate a little patience to help those that do.
(my emphasis added)
I couldn't disagree more.
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evanwish
Apr 22, 2009, 4:25 PM
Post #33 of 42
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angry wrote: Scouts have a generally bad reputation among climbers. The funny thing is, the only people who bitch about it are pretty soft, it's not exactly like the scouts are hogging the hard routes.
exactly true.
they only get in the way when you're a complete noob... so i don't mind them so much anymore [even though i used to be one of them and led the trips......] 
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jimo
Apr 22, 2009, 4:55 PM
Post #34 of 42
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Registered: Apr 21, 2005
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Zactly!
Not sure if I agree that those kids are more important than the climb... Point is that these adults are investing their time, altering their lifestyle, and generally getting kicked from all directions to make a difference in someone elses kid's life. Can you say that?
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sandstone
Apr 22, 2009, 8:37 PM
Post #35 of 42
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Registered: Apr 21, 2004
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Wow.
There are people who think a climb is more important than a child.
That's fucked up.
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desertwanderer81
Apr 22, 2009, 9:08 PM
Post #36 of 42
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: sandstone wrote: If a Scout group annoys you, keep things in perspective and remember that those kids are more important than your climb. If you can't donate your time to help the kids, at least donate a little patience to help those that do. (my emphasis added) I couldn't disagree more.
I think/hope this was a typo?
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Apr 22, 2009, 9:45 PM
Post #37 of 42
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Really? Is it that messed up or is it just honest? If you are not spending time on an activity that is not “helping the children” and “saving the planet” and “working to end hunger” and 10,000 other “noble” causes you must value that activity more than the causes. If you are spending your time climbing, then by definition, you must value that more than any and all causes. So yes, I value my climbing time more than someone else’s attempt to improve some child. There must be lots of people who agree with me, because otherwise the only climbing that would ever happen would be for Boy Scouts. Oh wait, the B.S. must be “selfish” too, otherwise they would spend all of their time doing “noble” work.
I’m not saying that people should walk over and kick the kids in the face. People should show the same respect for kids that you would for an adult and expect the same respect in return. Wrapping yourself in the flag of “for the children” is B.S.
That is even before we start to question the assumption that the setup is “helping the children”.
Or, going against the OP’s request, and talking about the merits of B.S. But that is best left for another forum…
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onarunning
Apr 22, 2009, 9:46 PM
Post #38 of 42
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Registered: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 94
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turfclan wrote: I know this topic has been posted before, but here goes. Please respond if you have had any negative or positive experiences with Boy Scout groups climbing. Were they well supervised? Were the scouts respectful of other climbers around them? Did you see any safety issues? Did they practice Leave No Trace? In general, what was your opinion of the group's behavior in and around the crag? Please do not post any personal opinions of the Scouting program...there are other web sites for that topic.
I personally have no problem with boy scouts in small groups climbing at the same locale I am.
That being said, this weekend I had the opportunity to overhear one "leader" of some sort try to explain trad climbing. While one climber led and his partner belayed, the adult attempted to explain how nuts work.
He pointed at the nuts on the belayer's harness, and said, "See those, what they do is slot those in the crack, and they expand to fit any size crack if you fall, so you don't hit the ground."
He then asked the belayer, who was in the process of belaying, to "take one of those off the harness and show it to us." The belayer politely declined, and I had a good laugh.
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desertwanderer81
Apr 22, 2009, 9:49 PM
Post #39 of 42
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onarunning wrote: turfclan wrote: I know this topic has been posted before, but here goes. Please respond if you have had any negative or positive experiences with Boy Scout groups climbing. Were they well supervised? Were the scouts respectful of other climbers around them? Did you see any safety issues? Did they practice Leave No Trace? In general, what was your opinion of the group's behavior in and around the crag? Please do not post any personal opinions of the Scouting program...there are other web sites for that topic. I personally have no problem with boy scouts in small groups climbing at the same locale I am. That being said, this weekend I had the opportunity to overhear one "leader" of some sort try to explain trad climbing. While one climber led and his partner belayed, the adult attempted to explain how nuts work. He pointed at the nuts on the belayer's harness, and said, "See those, what they do is slot those in the crack, and they expand to fit any size crack if you fall, so you don't hit the ground." He then asked the belayer, who was in the process of belaying, to "take one of those off the harness and show it to us." The belayer politely declined, and I had a good laugh.
Many here have said it, it's all about the adult leaders. Sometimes you have good ones. Other times bad ones.
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bandycoot
Apr 22, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #40 of 42
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My experience with boy scouts outdoors has been suboptimal. I've rarely seen them climbing, but run into them at climbing areas, like J-Tree or Yosemite, etc. They are loud, obnoxious, and damaging. They run around screaming, bashing things with sticks, and start yelling to each other as soon as they're awake in camp grounds, regardless of whether or not there are people trying to sleep 40' away. Personally, I think they're a terrible user group when it comes to the outdoors, and the scout masters and parents do a pathetic job trying to rein them in.
Josh
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Johnny_Fang
Apr 22, 2009, 10:41 PM
Post #41 of 42
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sandstone wrote: The goal of Scouting is not the badges or the outings, or any of that stuff. The goal is to help boys grow into responsible men. That's a tall order.
you forgot about the very important goals of teaching them to hate homosexuals and never question the actions of a republican president or the idea of a christian god. you know, help them grow into good brownshirt fascists.
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justroberto
Apr 22, 2009, 10:51 PM
Post #42 of 42
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Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876
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Johnny_Fang wrote: sandstone wrote: The goal of Scouting is not the badges or the outings, or any of that stuff. The goal is to help boys grow into responsible men. That's a tall order. you forgot about the very important goals of teaching them to hate homosexuals and never question the actions of a republican president or the idea of a christian god. you know, help them grow into good brownshirt fascists.
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