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Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks?
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kingbiscuit


Apr 24, 2009, 1:48 PM
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Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks?
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I am new to trad climbing and I was wondering how many people use oppositionals for their first piece. I guess I am being kind of specific to vertical cracks. Nothing seems completely safe from zippering for the first piece in a vertical crack.


patmay81


Apr 24, 2009, 1:56 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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this is very situational, even for perfectly vertical splitters.
-If the belayer can't get belay from directly below the first piece then the first piece probably needs to be multi-directional.
-If there is there any curve or lean to the left or right, then the first piece probably needs to be multi-directional.
-If there is any chance that the belayer might get pulled up to the first piece in the event of a fall then the first piece may need to be muti-directional.


chossmonkey


Apr 24, 2009, 2:53 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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Generally no, but I make sure the first piece is good for outward/upward pull.


grampacharlie


Apr 24, 2009, 2:56 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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Always make the first peice multi-directional. 'nough said.


colatownkid


Apr 24, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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kingbiscuit wrote:
I am new to trad climbing and I was wondering how many people use oppositionals for their first piece. I guess I am being kind of specific to vertical cracks. Nothing seems completely safe from zippering for the first piece in a vertical crack.

note that the above responses say to make the first piece multidirectional, not necessarily oppositional. in other words, if the first piece is a cam, depending on the situation, it can often be placed as a multidirectional piece and would not require a second piece as an oppositional.


shimanilami


Apr 24, 2009, 3:19 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?


johnwesely


Apr 24, 2009, 3:21 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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I usually make it a point to have 2 opposed and bomber nuts be my first piece, but sometimes I am content with a good cam placement.


tradrenn


Apr 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
Generally no, but I make sure the first piece is good for outward/upward pull.

Me too.

BTW. 22 T PC++ FTW MF.


rocknice2


Apr 24, 2009, 4:01 PM
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Re: [grampacharlie] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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grampacharlie wrote:
Always make the first piece multi-directional. 'nough said.
I'll second that.
Unless the belayer is DIRECTLY underneath then the multi-directional is only highly recommended.


sspssp


Apr 24, 2009, 4:07 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?

Sometimes that would work. Sometimes a long sling would be problematic if you are trying to protect a hard move close the ground. And if you fall, the upward may still unzip pieces. It could be that the long sling causes the second piece to fail first and then, for example, the first piece fails.

As a general rule, a cam that can handle some outwards/upwards pull is the best bet.


rocknice2


Apr 24, 2009, 4:18 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?

A long sling does not really help for the first piece. Again it depends how far away the belayer is standing.
If you put along enough sling to cut down the angle between belayer and climber then the second piece comes into play and needs to be M-D. This long sling will probably negate any protection the first pro was to serve.


shimanilami


Apr 24, 2009, 4:20 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?

Sometimes that would work. Sometimes a long sling would be problematic if you are trying to protect a hard move close the ground. And if you fall, the upward may still unzip pieces. It could be that the long sling causes the second piece to fail first and then, for example, the first piece fails.

As a general rule, a cam that can handle some outwards/upwards pull is the best bet.
I agree. I'm just surprised that there are so many posters who say that they always add an oppositional nut on their first piece. I've never seen this in my entire life.


rocknice2


Apr 24, 2009, 4:30 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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If the belayer is directly underneath the leader then there is little risk of upward pull. Unless the belayer moves their stance unbenounced to the leader then they're fucked.

Even when I place a cam, I sometimes try to get a nut in opposition if the crack is irregular.

Basically any time the rope changes direction a multi-directional is needed.


(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Apr 24, 2009, 4:32 PM)


esoteric1


Apr 24, 2009, 4:51 PM
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Re: [kingbiscuit] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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usualy a cam works as a multi directional piece on the first one.
I barely ever oppose nuts, one instance I do, is, say the first pitch ends on top of a pinnicle and the next pitch goes lateral for a ways, until you hit a system, then makes a 90* turn, at that 90* turn, Ill oppose 2 nuts, to make sure the angle stays that way. if that piece pulls and you lose that angle in the rope, youll get a zipper effect AND lose a bunch of linear feet in your system, which could cause you to ground out, depending on the circumstances.
out side of that scenerio, the only times ive opposed nuts, is to figure out how to do it, and on straight traversing routes, when downward gear doesnt exist.
I think its most important when you create angles in your system though, because that opens up a can of worms.


bill413


Apr 24, 2009, 6:55 PM
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Re: [esoteric1] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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I agree with the multi-directional folks. Whether that requires a nut placed in opposition, a cam, or a sling around a horn, doesn't matter. It needs to be able to hold.

As for the folks saying "if the belayer is directly under..." - I expect the belayer to move around. Yes, ideally, they should be in the right spot, but that doesn't always happen. So, plan for the belayer to not be directly under the anchor....make it able to withstand a pull from any directions.


vegastradguy


Apr 24, 2009, 8:40 PM
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Re: [bill413] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
As for the folks saying "if the belayer is directly under..." - I expect the belayer to move around. Yes, ideally, they should be in the right spot, but that doesn't always happen. So, plan for the belayer to not be directly under the anchor....make it able to withstand a pull from any directions.

i dont know about you, but i expect my belayer to be in the right spot at all times in general- or at least close to it. them standing too far away from the wall is asking for an accident.

as for multidirectional- as everyone has said, cams are ideal and easiest for your first piece. they dont always happen, and i can think of one instance in particular where i led this super thin .10a seam up in lcc- and it was rp's off the deck for the first 30' or so...to mitigate the need for a oppositional (since that wasnt going to happen due to the nature of the crack), a .75 camalot in a slot at the ground with a long sling on it was used to prevent popping the stoppers if i were to have fallen. while my belayer was in the right spot and i wasnt particularly worried about the gear popping on me, the gear available was rp's- and they were only bomber exactly how i set them, any outward movement at all and they would blow- so, we used the cam.

in the end, its all situational- learn to evaluate the situation in front of you, taking into account all the factors you can, and use them to make a decision that will keep you safe and comfortable with the situation at hand.


billcoe_


Apr 25, 2009, 8:38 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
I'm just surprised that there are so many posters who say that they always add an oppositional nut on their first piece. I've never seen this in my entire life.

Well, you probably just need to get out of the house more! LOL

The correct answer to the question is "sure it happens once in a while". Course, if you are using cams, NBD.


Adk


Apr 25, 2009, 9:34 AM
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Re: [esoteric1] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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esoteric1 wrote:
usualy a cam works as a multi directional piece on the first one.

A single cam surely does not do this.


esoteric1


Apr 25, 2009, 9:40 AM
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Re: [Adk] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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depends on how you place it


punk_rocker333


Apr 25, 2009, 11:38 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?

A long sling does not really help for the first piece. Again it depends how far away the belayer is standing.
If you put along enough sling to cut down the angle between belayer and climber then the second piece comes into play and needs to be M-D. This long sling will probably negate any protection the first pro was to serve.

How high do you usually place your first piece? I'd say mine are usually more than 10 feet up, often times higher. I would think that a long sling would reduce any zippering if your first piece was high up (which is common from my climbing experience) and still keep you off the ground.


areyoumydude


Apr 25, 2009, 11:46 AM
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Re: [Adk] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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Adk wrote:
esoteric1 wrote:
usualy a cam works as a multi directional piece on the first one.

A single cam surely does not do this.

All the falls I have ever caught at Indian Creek did.


joeforte


Apr 25, 2009, 11:47 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
I agree. I'm just surprised that there are so many posters who say that they always add an oppositional nut on their first piece. I've never seen this in my entire life.

I oppose 2 nuts, or a nut and a cam, for the first piece, whenever possible. I'd say 70% of the time.


colatownkid


Apr 25, 2009, 11:52 AM
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Re: [punk_rocker333] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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punk_rocker333 wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
If an outward pull is likely, why not simply eliminate the problem with a long sling?

A long sling does not really help for the first piece. Again it depends how far away the belayer is standing.
If you put along enough sling to cut down the angle between belayer and climber then the second piece comes into play and needs to be M-D. This long sling will probably negate any protection the first pro was to serve.

How high do you usually place your first piece? I'd say mine are usually more than 10 feet up, often times higher. I would think that a long sling would reduce any zippering if your first piece was high up (which is common from my climbing experience) and still keep you off the ground.

this all depends on what you consider to be "high up." in my opinion, 10 feet is hardly "high up." if your first piece is at 10 feet with a 2 foot sling on it, your first protection is really at 8 feet. this means your second piece needs to be around 12 to 14 feet up to keep you from decking. if that's the case, why bother with that first piece at all? it only protect 2 or 3 feet of the climb.

further, a long sling might negate zippering on the first piece, but then it just means your second piece can be subject to zippering...


punk_rocker333


Apr 25, 2009, 12:09 PM
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Re: [colatownkid] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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If your belayer was more or less below you and you climbed at least 10 to 15 feet up to put your first piece in, attach it with a sling, then climbed at least another body length above that to set your next piece depending upon the difficulty of the route in question (with or without sling attached depending upon how much the route wanders), I would say that your chances of zippering are small and an oppositional piece is not needed. This has been the case with nearly every route I have ever done.

I personally have never set an upward piece for opposition. I've placed pieces to keep my rope from running over sharp edges or to keep it out of the crack, but not from fear of zippering.


Adk


Apr 25, 2009, 5:15 PM
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Re: [areyoumydude] Do you place an oppositional for your first piece in vertical cracks? [In reply to]
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areyoumydude wrote:
Adk wrote:
esoteric1 wrote:
usualy a cam works as a multi directional piece on the first one.

A single cam surely does not do this.

All the falls I have ever caught at Indian Creek did.

I did not say it wouldn't catch.

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