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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #126 of 191
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kachoong: Your guess is incorrect in at least one instance: Rather than sawing thru his girth hitch, the girth hitch sawed thru Todd's belay loop.
You should review all the threads on Todd's death both here, at ST, and at SP. They include responses from multiple manufacturers specifically advising against the practice you are describing and that led to Todd's death.
If you believe that T's death was a freak accident that will never repeat, and that the harness designers are just wussies, then party on.
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kachoong
Apr 29, 2009, 3:43 PM
Post #127 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: kachoong: Your guess is incorrect in at least one instance: Rather than sawing thru his girth hitch, the girth hitch sawed thru Todd's belay loop. You should review all the threads on Todd's death both here, at ST, and at SP. They include responses from multiple manufacturers specifically advising against the practice you are describing and that led to Todd's death. If you believe that T's death was a freak accident that will never repeat, and that the harness designers are just wussies, then party on.
There is no way he used the same sling/tether for the life of his harness and that it was not removed the entire time.
And as I said earlier I do not advise girth-hitching a tether to the belay loop.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 3:49 PM
Post #128 of 191
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kachoong wrote: There is no way he used the same sling/tether for the life of his harness and that it was not removed the entire time.
What are you basing that on? If anything, I'd be inclined to expect the opposite: Had he regularly swapped out hitches, then the wear wouldn't have been concentrated on a single spot thereby compromising the loop so completely. Moreover, had he swapped them out recently, visual inspection would've showed that it was worn nearly all the way through.
In any event, I fail to see the point of yr post: Namely, that the PAS would wear out sooner. Maybe that will happen 75 times out of a hundred and the mode of failure in Todd's case only 25. Either way he dies.
Edit: Kachoong, are you meaning your post as a warning that folks need to alternate the wear spots on their PAS? If so, I'd agree and add only that it makes another argument for using a nylon sling over a PAS. Most folks end up g-hitching the same spot on that big loop over and over.
(This post was edited by k.l.k on Apr 29, 2009, 3:53 PM)
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kachoong
Apr 29, 2009, 3:57 PM
Post #129 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: kachoong wrote: There is no way he used the same sling/tether for the life of his harness and that it was not removed the entire time. What are you basing that on? If anything, I'd be inclined to expect the opposite: Had he regularly swapped out hitches, then the wear wouldn't have been concentrated on a single spot thereby compromising the loop so completely. Moreover, had he swapped them out recently, visual inspection would've showed that it was worn nearly all the way through. In any event, I fail to see the point of yr post: Namely, that the PAS would wear out sooner. Maybe that will happen 75 times out of a hundred and the mode of failure in Todd's case only 25. Either way he dies.
I am basing that on the exact information you are... speculation. I would like to see the results of such a situation but until then I believe the belay loop would win out if neither was changed.
My original point was to say pretty much what (I'm sure) you and many here are... remove the tether when not climbing, girth-hitch through tie-in points and inspect your equipment regularly.
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kachoong
Apr 29, 2009, 4:01 PM
Post #130 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: Edit: Kachoong, are you meaning your post as a warning that folks need to alternate the wear spots on their PAS? If so, I'd agree and add only that it makes another argument for using a nylon sling over a PAS. Most folks end up g-hitching the same spot on that big loop over and over.
I know it's repeated a lot, but yeah, it makes sense to alternate loops on a PAS... for me anyway... and despite the end loop being longer it still works on the other loops. The action of removing it from your harness after climbing will effectively help change the point of wear.
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bill413
Apr 29, 2009, 4:09 PM
Post #131 of 191
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BTW - On my last harness, I girth hitched the sling to it, and probably didn't swap it out until I retired the harness (and the sling). So, it's not unreasonable to me that others might do that too.
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dingus
Apr 29, 2009, 4:39 PM
Post #132 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: kachoong wrote: There is no way he used the same sling/tether for the life of his harness and that it was not removed the entire time. What are you basing that on? If anything, I'd be inclined to expect the opposite: Had he regularly swapped out hitches, then the wear wouldn't have been concentrated on a single spot thereby compromising the loop so completely.
I recall reading that Skinner and his partner had actually discussed and lightly joked about his belay loop wear. He had a harness on order? But seemingly, he was well aware of the loop wear, regardless of whether he ever swapped the sling or not. I think he'd also taped the worn spot, if memory serves?
DMT
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currupt4130
Apr 29, 2009, 5:15 PM
Post #133 of 191
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bill413 wrote: BTW - On my last harness, I girth hitched the sling to it, and probably didn't swap it out until I retired the harness (and the sling). So, it's not unreasonable to me that others might do that too.
Mines been on this harness for about a year now, a couple months after I got it. I've got another right here on my desk, I might just run two for redundancy's sake.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 5:32 PM
Post #134 of 191
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dingus wrote: I recall reading that Skinner and his partner had actually discussed and lightly joked about his belay loop wear. He had a harness on order? But seemingly, he was well aware of the loop wear, regardless of whether he ever swapped the sling or not. I think he'd also taped the worn spot, if memory serves?
The published reports are a bit murky on that point. I've heard a wide array of different stories and accounts, but don't know how much faith to put in them. His partner publicly reported having warned Todd about the wear on his harness.
But as I understood the maker's post-mortem of the loop, it had been gnawed virtually through, and as low-ball as Todd could be, it seems to me more likely that he was unaware of just how bad it was. I doubt we could produce a standardized test or recreation-- the various angles of pull, different types of webbing, all make it really speculative. (And some of the accounts suggest that he had been using two g-hitches at least occasionally.)
The one bottom line that everyone seems to have agreed upon, is that you shouldn't g-hitch to yr belay loop.
And yes, I understand that he'd ordered a new one. How'd you like to be the prodeal bro who wanked around on that order? Someone's carrying some guilt.
(This post was edited by k.l.k on Apr 29, 2009, 5:33 PM)
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pmyche
Apr 29, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #135 of 191
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welle
Apr 29, 2009, 6:29 PM
Post #136 of 191
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tradrenn wrote: D.C. is just another useless thing to carry up the climb that gets tangled between gear. I think you would be better of learning "clove hitch - one handed" http://www.climerware.com/clove.shtml Save your money. HTH
it's good except for situations when your rope is weighted or kinked pretty bad. I had a similar situation that rgold describes, so I had to clip in with a sling girth-hitched from my belay loop, unweight the rope, put a piece in closer to the problem area, clip in with a clove hitch and get out the pickle... In retrospect, it would've helped very much if I had a sling already girth-hitched to my belay loop.
rgold wrote: 3. Sometimes, a nut or cam gets stuck and the second has to hang in order to free both hands for the removal process. With today's super-long leads and stretchy ropes, it can be an exercise in frustration and futility to try to have the leader hold the second in place. In many cases, it is better for the second to place some recently-cleaned gear and hang from it. Having an adjustable tether ready to go makes this process a lot more efficient. |
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 7:05 PM
Post #137 of 191
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pmyche wrote: klk, Respectfully (and drifting), the gear company and its employees should not share blame in Todd's death. Pro deals often lag behind regular orders, as I'm sure everyone who pro deals knows. Without regular orders, a company would not be able to pro deal. In my opinion TS was killed by unmitigated risk taking and failure to back up suspect gear.
Pmyche-- Tx for the post. I don't blame anyone at the co. for Todd's accident. Even years ago, when I was climbing with him, Todd could be more casual than I was comfortable with. I just know that if I was involved in that order, I'd feel like hell-- it wouldn't be rational or sensible, it wouldn't have been my fault in any way. Guilt isn't always rational. But I think a lot of us would feel choked regardless. Don't know the folks there, but honestly, they have my sympathy rather than my blame.
And I don't think this is exactly thread drift-- it's clear that a lot of posters here aren't familiar with Todd's death. And we all tend to get casual with gear. Which is sort of the point of the thread--
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ladyscarlett
Apr 29, 2009, 7:32 PM
Post #138 of 191
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dingus wrote: k.l.k wrote: dingus wrote: I think new and progressing climbers would do well to learn of the benefits and weaknesses of incorporating a daisy or a tether into their kit, experiment a bit and decide for themselves. Beginners need to learn how to multi-purpose, and that means learning how to use a frickin sling. The last thing a beginner needs is another piece of specialized dedicated gear, especially one that is not designed nor intended for that use. THINK. I see no danger in recommending climbers, beginners and shaggy old dogs included, to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and evaluate gear and technique in light of their own requirements. DMT
Wow, I don't see these attitudes spelled out in the beginners forum as much as I would have thought. Gotta say it's nice to hear/see. Encourages a mental flexibility that seems to be a good thing on the mountain.
I just hope you guys don't get annoyed with the "why did you choose to..." Girl's gotta learn!
And one more thing
happiegrrrl wrote: I guess if someone threw in a few girlie pictures, then it would be complete. Maybe that rear view one of the blond looking at a JTree formation, naked but for her saran wrap daisy chain....
That sounds like a truly multipurpose daisy chain...though it sounds a little warm....
cheers
ls
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pmyche
Apr 29, 2009, 7:41 PM
Post #139 of 191
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Thanks for clarifying, klk. Namaste.
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hafilax
Apr 29, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #140 of 191
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Is this what everyone's been talking about?
.jpg)
Googling "daisy chain" images was  I tells ya! NSFW!
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ladyscarlett
Apr 29, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #141 of 191
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hafilax wrote: Is this what everyone's been talking about? [image]http://kentplace1971.org/Carrying%20the%20Daisy%20Chain%20(resize).jpg[/image] Googling "daisy chain" images was I tells ya! NSFW!
Totally off subject, but I've carried one of those chains! In fact, it almost looks like I carried it in that spot...wearing white..weird.
Where's the saran wrap?
thanks for sharing
ls
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desertwanderer81
Apr 29, 2009, 7:57 PM
Post #142 of 191
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Ultimately, a daisy chain does nothing that you can't do with other gear.
With that said, I like my daisy chain and use it for both sport and trad as I can clip in at any length I want. It is purely a convenience thing for me.
However there are a few things you should keep in mind.
1) Never climb above your anchors with your daisy. If you fall on your daisy chain it will hurt and you could pull the anchors out.
2) Take your daisy off your harness every once in a while and inspect both your harness and daisy chain. If you just leave it on damage can happen which you do not know about.
3) It's extra weight which you don't need to have.
It's purely a personal choice. I choose to have one. Others don't! Use whatever you feel comfortable with.
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rgold
Apr 29, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #143 of 191
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For what it is worth, my memory of the TS tragedy is that the belay loop broke at the point where it rubs against the leg loop bridge, not because of any wear at the girth hitch. In fact, a daisy remained attached to the belay loop after it had failed.
This doesn't exonerate girth-hitching (which I am not trying to defend), because the girth-hitched daisy (or daisies) kept the belay loop in the same position and so exacerbated wear at the leg loop. Wear at the leg loop may have been made worse because the keeper strap on the leg loop was broken, allowing the leg loops to "saw" back and forth over the belay loop with greater than usual amplitude. The combination of increased sawing action and a fixed belay loop position seem to have been enough to cause catastrophic wear, which, by the way, would have been visible since it was not covered up by the girth hitch.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 8:51 PM
Post #144 of 191
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rgold wrote: For what it is worth, my memory of the TS tragedy is that the belay loop broke at the point where it rubs against the leg loop bridge, not because of any wear at the girth hitch. In fact, a daisy remained attached to the belay loop after it had failed.
That was Will Gadd's theory, and it is one plausible scenario, but I don't think we have a definitive conclusion. Or at least not one that I've seen published. The one clear result was that testing at Mammut found it unlikely that the loop had been chemically degraded. Was there something after that? If so, I don't think I've seen it.
One of the scariest bits of the story, was that the preliminary testing at both BD and Wild Country (before the post-mortem info came out), left them skeptical that belay loop failure was the crucial failure, since even loops cut almost entirely through still broke at high loads (over 8kn in the WC test, iirc). So why did Todd's fail even though it appeared less compromised than the ones in the BD and WC tests? Who knows?
But if n00bz are now making daisies standard gear for getting themselves anchored, we're going to see some problems sooner or later.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/videos/daisy.html
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rgold
Apr 29, 2009, 10:06 PM
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In the BD tests, a loop cut through 90% from one edge held 777 lbf. 75% cut through held 2918 lbf. And this one, abraded with a file,
held 4805 lbf. Did Todd's loop look less compromised than this? I don't know.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 10:09 PM
Post #146 of 191
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rgold wrote: Did Todd's loop look less compromised than this? I don't know.
The quote i recall is 20%. Of course that was eyewitness recollection after the fact, so who knows?
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seatbeltpants
Apr 29, 2009, 10:16 PM
Post #147 of 191
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ladyscarlett wrote: Wow, I don't see these attitudes spelled out in the beginners forum as much as I would have thought. Gotta say it's nice to hear/see. Encourages a mental flexibility that seems to be a good thing on the mountain.
true enough - best discussion i've read on here in a while. cheers, guys.
steve
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PigsOnDrugs
Apr 30, 2009, 1:31 AM
Post #149 of 191
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wouldnt the chain have to add more of an impact for the belayer?
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robdotcalm
Apr 30, 2009, 4:58 PM
Post #150 of 191
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The question of whether girth hitching a belay loop is a good idea has been discussed with a lack of useful data acquired in controlled circumstances. For example, testing the loop by girth hitching it tightly it with a sling and rotating the sling around the loop a thousand times (10,000 whatever) and assessing what damage has occurred. Until such testing is carried out, each of us is a maven on deciding whether girth hitching a belay loop is safe and convenient rather than dangerous and precarious.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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