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nattfodd
Apr 29, 2009, 8:52 AM
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Here's a (probably stupid) question, but I've been wondering about it for a while:
I understand that for general alpine climbing and glacier travel, a regular ice axe (straight shaft, ~60cm long) is the best, for self arrest and walking help, plus the occasional move of mixed climbing. And on very steep snow or ice, two technical ice tools are of course necessary. But what do you take when your route has both? Leaving the ice tools are not an option (I actually tried climbing vertical ice with only one tool, only to discover that, yes, ice is really slippery), but do you take an extra ice axe for the glacier/not too steep parts, or do you use one of your ice tools for that purpose? And if the latter, isn't the curved shaft and small size a big pain? I also expect that the convex curve would bang right into one's chest in case of a self-arrest.
So what am I missing here?
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Guran
Apr 29, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Definitely not a stupid question. As usual, the answer is "it depends".
How likely/risky is a fall where you'd need to self-arrest?
How confident are you with your ability to do a self-arrest with an ice tool?
Will you need to do axe-belays? Simply plunging a vertical axe to protect your second across a bergschrund or a crevasse is a real time saver, but it can hardly be done with a really techical tool (curved, leashess...)
How well do you climb with a straight axe? Would you be able to climb the steep sections with one tool beeing a straight long walking axe?
And last: what do you have, what can you afford to buy and how much do you want to carry?
Just to make matters more complicated, some prefer walking poles until it's time to bring out the technical tools., confident that they won't have to stop a slide.
Me, I own one straight walking axe and two very technical tools (nomics)
Both are great for their intended purposes, but leave a great gap in the middle.
For next trip, I hope to do some steep snow/ice with glacier approach. I might get some new gear but what configuration I'll end up with... is not clear yet. So I'd appreciate any input myself.
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meanandugly
Apr 29, 2009, 10:27 AM
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When my route contains both, I take one of each. If the route has wi 3+ or above then I leave ice axe home and bring tools.
Enjoy.
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nattfodd
Apr 29, 2009, 10:30 AM
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Interesting, I thought there was some sort of "universal" answer, but apparently not.
The reason I am asking is that I am going to attempt Chopicalqui in a month (bit below 21000ft, in Peru), and there is very steep snow with a possible vertical ice pitch, so two tools are recommended. But most of the route is on snow and there is also crevassed glacier to cross.
I currently only own an ice axe (BD Venom with a classic pick), but it has a slightly more aggressive shape than usual axes, so perhaps just renting a technical tool to supplement it would be a good solution indeed.
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skiclimb
Apr 29, 2009, 12:44 PM
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My solution to this was buying a third straight-shaft tool...On routes like this I just brought one bent and one straight (specifically the BD Cobra and the BD Prophet)...the straight was a bit shorter than normal for general moutaineering and of course didnt have the optimal pick for self arrest..but it worked well enough for the purpose ..
Mainly I use a general purpose axe as a walking stick on steep ground ..say long 40+deg couliors..with hard summer snow I usually have it's leash (carefully sized for the purpose) hooked to my harness..
When I need a short breather I plunge the shaft and have a pretty solid instant anchor....A short straight shaft works great for this...better than a longer one on steep ground.
Basically like most alpine climbing you gear decisions tend to involve compromises for weight and versatility versus having every perfect peice of gear you might want technically.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Apr 29, 2009, 12:52 PM)
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graniteboy
Apr 29, 2009, 8:50 PM
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The "It depends" part of this equation is why I basically own a small quiver of axes.
If the approach is unglaciated, then the short, straight shaft that ski climb suggests is a good choice. If you expect to have to use your approach axe as a crevasse extrication anchor, however, a 50 or 55cm axe can be woefully inadequate.
Also, when you're doing steep "wallowing" in steep deep stuff, as someimes happens in south america or alaska range routes, a nice long old school length axe (palm of the hand to the floor) can be pretty useful.
Basically, if, after a glaciated approach, the route is under WI (or AI) 3, I just go with one more technical tool and one long axe. If it's harder climbing, then the long axe might be staying home, nd Id rely more on pickets as a potential crevasse extrication anchor.
So yeah, there are alot of things to consider. And every choice is a compromise based on what you expect to have to deal with.
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angry
Apr 29, 2009, 9:07 PM
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nattfodd wrote: Interesting, I thought there was some sort of "universal" answer, but apparently not. The reason I am asking is that I am going to attempt Chopicalqui in a month (bit below 21000ft, in Peru), and there is very steep snow with a possible vertical ice pitch, so two tools are recommended. But most of the route is on snow and there is also crevassed glacier to cross. I currently only own an ice axe (BD Venom with a classic pick), but it has a slightly more aggressive shape than usual axes, so perhaps just renting a technical tool to supplement it would be a good solution indeed.
I've done 2 peaks in Peru, Alpamayo and Hauscaran. Alpamayo required short tools on the main section. Down low, long before we started ice climbing, we ditched our axes and went with the short tools. Of course we did it in a day so they weren't there for that long.
On Hauscaran we used 1 long tool each and although it worked, it ended up being a lot harder than we'd have liked. We got turned back just shy of the summit. When we returned, we brought 1 extra technical tool. The idea was for the leader to have 2 and the second to have the one long one. It probably would have worked but we got snowed off before we got onto the glacier.
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divnamite
Apr 29, 2009, 9:23 PM
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"Depends". A basic solution is, on approach, each climber carries an ice axe and an ice tool. Each use ice axe for glacier travel. When ice pitches come, leader takes both ice tools for lead, and followers use ice axes for follow. If the ice pitches are 4, 4+ and sustain, then each should carry two tools.
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nattfodd
Apr 29, 2009, 10:26 PM
Post #9 of 16
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I don't think that either Chopicalqui nor any of the two other peaks that I am considering for acclimatization (Pisco and Yanapacha) have any such technical climbing. From what I understand, there is just an occasional serac or schrund pitch, plus steep snow, but nothing sustained nor very difficult (technically speaking). So it sounds like I could indeed be all right with one technical tool (that I'd rent) and one long axe (that I already own).
This discussion is certainly an eye opener, I didn't know there were so many possible combinations. And I thought that I could just buy a couple of tools and be done...
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 10:46 PM
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nattfodd wrote: This discussion is certainly an eye opener, I didn't know there were so many possible combinations. And I thought that I could just buy a couple of tools and be done...
Hehe.
Alpine is a paradise for gearlickers. You haven't even started the ski mountaineering yet. Just wait.
And of course, at some point, you're going to want to fondle some vintage collectibles.
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nattfodd
Apr 29, 2009, 10:56 PM
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k.l.k wrote: nattfodd wrote: This discussion is certainly an eye opener, I didn't know there were so many possible combinations. And I thought that I could just buy a couple of tools and be done... Hehe. Alpine is a paradise for gearlickers. You haven't even started the ski mountaineering yet. Just wait. And of course, at some point, you're going to want to fondle some vintage collectibles.
Heh, I'm already a photographer and am starting to build a trad rack, looks like I have a gearlist for the next few decades...
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graniteboy
Apr 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Registered: Dec 1, 2001
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In reply to: Alpine is a paradise for gearlickers
Nah.
Always remember that Technique, judgement, experience, and old beater gear will get you thru rough times way better than brand new sparkley gear without the other 3 things will.....
After seeing what the OP is doing though, I would probably recommend he take a pair of straight shaft Prophets and a nice long Snowpicket. Should get you through it all...
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doons
Apr 29, 2009, 11:52 PM
Post #13 of 16
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Registered: Oct 8, 2005
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buy another Venom with a tech pick (and hammer)and you can climb anything. "technical mountaineering" is what they are made for. i have climbed WI5 w/ venoms, and they are better for general mountaineering than a classic axe because the agressive picks arrest better.
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Guran
Apr 30, 2009, 10:36 AM
Post #14 of 16
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doons wrote: buy another Venom with a tech pick (and hammer)and you can climb anything. "technical mountaineering" is what they are made for. i have climbed WI5 w/ venoms, and they are better for general mountaineering than a classic axe because the agressive picks arrest better.
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Guran
Jun 22, 2009, 2:43 PM
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nattfodd wrote: Interesting, I thought there was some sort of "universal" answer, but apparently not. The reason I am asking is that I am going to attempt Chopicalqui in a month (bit below 21000ft, in Peru), and there is very steep snow with a possible vertical ice pitch, so two tools are recommended. But most of the route is on snow and there is also crevassed glacier to cross. I currently only own an ice axe (BD Venom with a classic pick), but it has a slightly more aggressive shape than usual axes, so perhaps just renting a technical tool to supplement it would be a good solution indeed.
So, how did it go? What did you use?
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nattfodd
Jun 22, 2009, 3:33 PM
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It went great and I summited. I rented a small technical hammer tool and things were very fine with both, though there was nothing really hard, mostly steep snow requiring two tools. I was surprised by how good the venom is, actually, getting another one with hammer and tech pick is a solution towards which I am starting to lean.
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