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lena_chita
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Apr 28, 2009, 4:34 PM
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clee03m wrote: lhwang wrote: I don't buy the whole evolutionary/gender differences in leading explanation. Me neither. ... That being said, I have seen more girls who exclusively belay...
O.K., so you have seen more women opting to exclusively belay or only toprope.
I have seen the same thing, too.
So, my question to you is: at what point would these sort of individual observations be considered "a trend indicating that different genders AS A GROUP approach climbing differently"-- e.i. "gender difference"?
By the way, I agree with lhwang's earlier statement that the spectrum within gender is greater than the difference between genders.
One doesn't preclude the other. You can have two groups with the same (large) Standard Deviation, and have the Medians differ from each other at the same time.
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clee03m
Apr 28, 2009, 5:57 PM
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This is why I was at first disinclined to answer this thread. I just wonder what we are gaining by blaming gender inequalities for our fear of leading. I re-read the previous thread that lhwang mentioned, and I think these quotes are helpful as opposed to most of what I have read in this tread so far.
"Determination and mental toughness definitely played a stronger role [in leading] than physical aptitude or gender."
"I found it very surprising and thought-provoking to read posts from women saying that they think women in general have more confidence issues, or that we are more prone to fear. I really believe that those thoughts are self-fulfilling prophecies. Especially with climbing, which has got to be at leas 75% mental.
Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things").
Attributing fear to your gender is nothing but an excuse. Blaming society is disempowering and even worse, because it implies that women somehow don't have control over their own thoughts."
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clausti
Apr 28, 2009, 6:43 PM
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clee03m wrote: Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things").
but, oddly, not very many physicists.
to say that there are not gender differences is to be politically correct to the point of idiocy. that's like saying that there isn't a difference in the average SAT score of white students and black students. in both cases the fact is, there are differences. but, since these things are "population" statistics, they can both represent meaningful differences between groups, and be totally useless for comparing individuals. which they are.
as far as gender differences, whatever the selective origins: hormonal exposure affects brain function, testosterone in particular. and there are gender differences in both personal perception of risk (eg. R-rated routes, 13 year old skate boarders) and societal acceptance of perceived inferiority (women who don't lead, women who hang out at the crag to belay only).
i don't really think people are "blaming" things. but there are reasons why more men lead than women. and it's not individual whimsy occurring a million times.
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lena_chita
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Apr 28, 2009, 7:15 PM
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clee03m wrote: This is why I was at first disinclined to answer this thread. I just wonder what we are gaining by blaming gender inequalities for our fear of leading. I re-read the previous thread that lhwang mentioned, and I think these quotes are helpful as opposed to most of what I have read in this tread so far. ."
Is anyone "blaming" gender inequalities here? I didn't think so.
If the OP posted something like 'I find leading very daunting, and I think it is because I'm a female that it is so scary to me', I would be the first one to jump in and say:"Oh, please, don't hide behind your gender identity as a faint-prone dainty little female, if you want to lead, you can overcome your fears and boost your confidence to become a solid leader."
But this isn't what the OP said. OP noticed the same thing YOU did-- that females in general are more likely to hang back, let the guys take the lead, and then toprope/follow, and asked why this might be so.
And the answer to that is yes, there ARE gender differences, due to upbringing, social pressures, and yes, nature, too.
It isn't to say that women CAN'T lead every bit as boldly as males do. Of course they can, and many do.
But as a group we are different than guys in our behavior, for various reasons.
clee03m wrote: "Determination and mental toughness definitely played a stronger role [in leading] than physical aptitude or gender."
Agree completely.
clee03m wrote: "I found it very surprising and thought-provoking to read posts from women saying that they think women in general have more confidence issues, or that we are more prone to fear. I really believe that those thoughts are self-fulfilling prophecies. Especially with climbing, which has got to be at leas 75% mental. Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things"). "
I do not find the two things mutually exclusive.
Saying that women CAN do everything just as confidently as males can, and saying that the CURRENT POPULATION OF WOMEN, as is, given their various backgrounds and upbringing, etc. IS more likely than their maile peers to have confidence issues , hang back, let others take the lead, etc. are two different things alltogether.
As a parent, I am trying to raise a daughter who would be strong, confident, etc-- just like her brother. If every other parent does the same, maybe eventually women AS A POPULATION would not have any confidence issues. but right now they do.
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fresh
Apr 28, 2009, 7:27 PM
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I don't know if there's science to back it up, but I think most men and women have distinctly different feedback circuits in their brains. after my gf finishes a climb that scared the shit out of her, her brain tells her "all right, good job and everything, but don't ever fucking do that again. you almost died." after me or one of my climbing buddies does a climb that scares the shit out of us, our brains tell us "WOOOOO let's do that shit again."
it's a generalization, and there's plenty of exceptions. but I think most guys and girls just have different motivations for trying hard/scary routes.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 28, 2009, 8:47 PM
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I'd like to chime in again here. I'd like to say that, while I enjoy leading to some extent, I find that I sometimes enjoy belaying more. This is probably because I teach at a summer camp and work with children a lot, so I enjoy being supportive and coaching a climber through a difficult section of a route while I belay him or her. It's the same reason that I enjoy spotting people while bouldering, a task that most people find tedious.
What I find interesting (and sometimes annoying and unfair) is that, as a guy who feels this way, I get labeled as a "wimp" and called things like "belay-bitch" (not my term--I hate the turn of phrase), while similar behavior is sometimes expected of women I've climbed with and seen climbing and those women who do get on the sharp edge of things and lead tough routes are seen as the exception rather than the rule. It really isn't fair (to either sex) that pressure is put on men to lead while women are often expected not to.
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kiwiprincess
Apr 28, 2009, 8:59 PM
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lena_chita wrote: And the answer to that is yes, there ARE gender differences, due to upbringing, social pressures, and yes, nature, too. As a parent, I am trying to raise a daughter who would be strong, confident, etc-- just like her brother. If every other parent does the same, maybe eventually women AS A POPULATION would not have any confidence issues. but right now they do.
I have been raised in exactly the same way as my brothers, as my mother was determined to give me opportunities she had not been allowed.(had to leave school as education was a waste of money as she was only going to get married. had to do all the cooking)
In real life I realise this is very unusual, I am constantly suprised by other peoples expectations and my differences to them. (smaller meals for girls was the big shock!)
I am very competitive for a woman, i always want to go hard and try full on. I have a heights thing so leading is hard, but in other sports i push my limits. Not all women do. I sometimes feel that it is related to caution and sometimes to self conciousness....not wanting to embarrass them selves in public by being the worst at first. But how else do you learn?
People often ask me how the guys feel about me being so good.
I think this is the older generation(50+) or a women's issue not coming from the guys. if it rarely happens, the idiot's not going to be a good friend, so I just let him flow through my life, and spend time with all the guys who just accept me as I am and want to spend the day having fun with me snowboarding, riding, climbing whatever.
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acacongua
Apr 29, 2009, 11:43 PM
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This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage.
Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons.
Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with?
Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
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wonderwoman
Apr 30, 2009, 3:43 PM
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I agree with you, and I think we all have to take responsibility for our own climbing.
These are the things that I know about myself:
1. If it's less than 50 degrees and shady and / or wet, I will not climb. I have no tolerance for cold rock and I'm okay with this. These are the days that you will find me belaying or doing jumping jacks at the cliff base.
2. If there is a tricky start move that I think that I may hit the ground or ledge, I will not lead the pitch. I badly hurt my ankle and back bouldering and won't take that risk again.
3. I get seriously pissed with myself if I back off a climb and hand the sharp end to somebody else. I do not often cheat myself out of the opportunity to lead. When I do back off (which is not very often), it is usually because of reasons 1 or 2 and I'm okay with that!
I think the trick is to figure out and name what holds you back from leading. Once you do that, you can either be okay with those limitations or figure out how to overcome them.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Apr 30, 2009, 3:43 PM)
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camhead
Apr 30, 2009, 5:39 PM
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acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
Fixed that for you
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clausti
Apr 30, 2009, 6:03 PM
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camhead wrote: acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year. Fixed that for you
i'm not gonna lie- the number of times i was slammed into the rock when i was a beginning leader was nontrivial. 110lb climber plus 150-180 lb belayer minus any kind of soft catch equals ouch. on my very first trip to the red, Terry saw my belayer doing this to me and sat him down and explained what a soft catch was. it definitely helped that crew. (then he took pity on us and rescued our draws that i kept falling trying to obtain.) i sprained my wrist and bashed up my whole right side once hitting the edge of the roof on mo'betta holds. my belayer thought i'd clear it since he had given me the same amount of slack he gives everyone at that spot. but he failed to understand that i'd fail to induce enough stretch in the rope.
later, i took a 15-18 foot slab fall and inverted. luckily, i landed in a ball with my head well away from the rock, but it was still pretty scary.
later, i fell bouldering and injured my back pretty seriously. no climbing (or so much as walking on a treadmill) for 3 months, two of which i walked at all only with the help of a cane.
and i'm probably a more paranoid than usual person to begin with. i've definitely yet to train myself out of the instinctive response that falling=pain, which is why i'm getting better at onsiting/flashing harder stuff, but my redpoint peak is pretty much static for the last few years.
*edited to add: it should be noted that i've been climbing outside right at 6 years now, so it's not like i had a string of accidents all together.
(This post was edited by clausti on Apr 30, 2009, 6:08 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Apr 30, 2009, 7:44 PM
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acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
Fair Play, climbing does demand personal responsibility and one can't shy away from personal inadequacies when they prevent success. However, I think we are just musing on some of the forms that mental issues manifest. I will be optimistic and say that no one here is using science or social development as an excuse, just an interesting possible factor.
I know that my issues come from being a beginner plain and simple and incredibly insecure about my abilities on the rock, which results in over thinking, so that instead of applying 100% of my mental powers to the rock in front and ahead, my mind is wrapped up with "what ifs." The brain is slowly being trained to focus and not think too hard.
Being incredibly new to leading, I look forward to the mental development that comes with it, because really, I know that the base of all my problems is that I'M WEAK.
Luckily, it's something I can work on!! Heh
To continuing adventures on the sharp end!
cheers
ls
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lhwang
Apr 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Yes to the whole soft catch thing.
That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun.
Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up.
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lena_chita
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May 1, 2009, 2:50 PM
Post #39 of 82
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lhwang wrote: Yes to the whole soft catch thing. That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun. Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up.
Everyone, men and women, have good days and bad days when it comes to leading...
I certainly can be affected by many things when I climb, but I don't feel that I have regular lead-head issues or that gender is the main reason for bad days that I might have once in a while.
And yeah, the soft catch thing... The worst catch I ever had was actually from a female belayer who outweighted me by maybe 20-25 pounds, at most. But she was so used to being the lighter person in the pair that she never really processed the fact that she was belaying someone lighter than she was for a change. It was only the second time she belayed me, we weren't regular partners... So, overhanging wall, end-of-the-day, 30-ish ft fall, stiff lock-off on a gri-gri with no extra slack, and a hip bruise bigger than my palm... ouch!
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granite_grrl
May 1, 2009, 5:45 PM
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lena_chita wrote: lhwang wrote: Yes to the whole soft catch thing. That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun. Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up. Everyone, men and women, have good days and bad days when it comes to leading... I certainly can be affected by many things when I climb, but I don't feel that I have regular lead-head issues or that gender is the main reason for bad days that I might have once in a while. And yeah, the soft catch thing... The worst catch I ever had was actually from a female belayer who outweighted me by maybe 20-25 pounds, at most. But she was so used to being the lighter person in the pair that she never really processed the fact that she was belaying someone lighter than she was for a change. It was only the second time she belayed me, we weren't regular partners... So, overhanging wall, end-of-the-day, 30-ish ft fall, stiff lock-off on a gri-gri with no extra slack, and a hip bruise bigger than my palm... ouch!
For myself I don't usually have to deal with guys that really outweigh me (my husband is only 15-20lbs heavier than me), so it's not as bad when I get a hard catch. But my harness leg-loop sits right where I broke my femur, so a hard catch can take me out of commission for a couple of climbs. Fortunally, Nathan has gotten really good at giving me fantastic, soft catches. Last year he got to practice it a fair bit too.
When I started leading it was on gear. I definitely had some head issues, confidence in my self in my climbing and my abilities. It mostly took practice and time to get over this. Then I ledged out. You better believe that fucked that up. I'm not in a totally different head space. I started sport climbing more, actually take more falls now than when I used to concentrate on trad climbing. But I like staying on nice overhanging sport climbs. If I look down and see stuff I can hit on a harder climb, you better believe that'll mess me up. Even if it's not very likely I'll hit it as I get higher, my mojo is ruined for that climb, and sometimes even for the day.
I still trad climb, but I tend to stay away from limestone gear climbing. It took a bit to get my confidence back in my climbing abilities, but they came back. I'm out of practice right now, but I'd like to get more trad climbing in this summer and bring my lead level up to where it's never been before.
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clee03m
May 4, 2009, 3:06 PM
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Whatever issues I've had in the past, I am happy with my lead head for now. That being said, there are things I don't like when I lead, but I am OK with that. I don't like hard starts that could potentially hurt my ankle. I don't like 'alpine' style climbing with loose holds/blocks as I found out on a recent trip. I don't like run out climbs. And I hate falling and will hang or climb down unless I have my heart set on an onsight or a red point. The reason I am OK with above is that despite what I don't like I do push my limits with leads. I will lead at my limit with sport climbing and pretty close to my limit with trad (which I am hoping will change to just 'my limit' after this season).
About soft catches, two of my regular partners who are mostly trad climbers suck at giving me a soft catch. They are not as used to catching people especially light people. But I am not innocent. I recently misjudged with 2 different girls at the gym. One apparantly weighed more than she looked, and I think the little jump in my part may have been unnecessary. She didn't deck or anything, but I think we was a bit surprised by how far she fell. Another girl was so light that despite my attempt at giving her slack and a little jump, I didn't give a soft catch. She didn't get hurt, but she didn't want to try leading the climb again. She had just given me a perfect catch at the same spot the time before, too. And she has been climbing for only 4 months. I felt terrible, and made a resolution to really think when I belay girls and small people. I think sometimes I get lazy because I usually belay big dudes.
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lena_chita
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May 6, 2009, 5:29 PM
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acacongua wrote: camhead wrote: Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? But you got it down when we moved onto Tissue Tiger - and after you onsited it. Note to everyone: if you have ego issues, don't put Camhead on your projects.
... unless you climb so much weaker than he does that you simply don't have any ego issues when he onsights your project. :)
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acacongua
May 6, 2009, 5:33 PM
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lhwang wrote: That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun.
That's how my broken ankle occurred (on the 5th route that I ever lead). Over time and lots of climbing, I got smarter about belayers and really took to steep climbing and now I'm really pushing the grades (not on slab though)
BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend.
(This post was edited by acacongua on May 6, 2009, 5:36 PM)
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wonderwoman
May 6, 2009, 6:18 PM
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acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend.
It just doesn't work so well for trad.
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camhead
May 6, 2009, 6:30 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad.
Yeah, trad requires other techniques.
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wonderwoman
May 6, 2009, 6:41 PM
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camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad.
You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders!
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happiegrrrl
May 6, 2009, 9:02 PM
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The start of a route is the thing that is it for me. If I can get 2 pieces in before it looks too committing, I don't think twice. But if I have to climb something I can't guarantee, it is harder to psyche myself into getting started.
Climbing that is at my limit with a few good pieces under me is just so much more pleasurable that climbing at my limit off the belay(or ground with an ugly landing).
I also have had some problems getting regular partners. I'm just not so good at maintaining relationships - there, I said it! That manifests itself in that I am often climbing cold with someone I don't know, and that makes me nervous on lead.
Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. I wish I could bring up the good feelings before heading out though, instead of the worriesome ones!
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ladyscarlett
May 6, 2009, 10:15 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad. You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders!
I'm going to remember that technique - that will give me at least another 6 ft!!
heh
ls
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clee03m
May 7, 2009, 12:22 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: That manifests itself in that I am often climbing cold with someone I don't know, and that makes me nervous on lead.
I agree that climbing with new partners is scary. I won't put myself in situations where I can fall if I don't know my partner well.
At the risk of being nosey, how come you can't keep your partners? Is that because you climb with SO's and you break up or you just can't keep climbing partners? Just curious...
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