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skiclimb
May 2, 2009, 3:19 AM
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I use this for my general purpose axe leash. REI here sells thin bungie..seems like maybe 3 or 4 mm dont remember for sure.. when tying your knots make sure that your bungie isnt fully extended at max extension of the tape...other than that its not supercritical the diameter of the bungie..use best judgement and should be fine.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on May 2, 2009, 3:20 AM)
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maldaly
May 2, 2009, 4:20 AM
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james_va,
You're going to get this a lot if this thread gains any momentum so here it is, Remember I said it first. Using umbilicals with leashless tools completely eliminates any advantage that you gain from going leashless. If dropping tools worries you, go back to leashes.
Don't do it.
BTW, I have never dropped a tool when climbing leashless. I can't say that about climbing with leashes.
Mal
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.sam.
May 2, 2009, 5:12 AM
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i use about four mill cord with half inch tubular webing. and for them not being usefull and going back to leashes... id try it yourself. umbilicals are the best system as far as im concerned, you can place pro as easy as climbing leashless also shake pump out and with any tangeling from swithching hands you can simply unclip at a comfy stance and fix it. the other benifit is of corse that you cant drop a tool, wich o a big route is a possibility. the other benifit is that your always backed up on to axes. you shouldent count on them holding you if you fall but they can. the nylon in the webbing isnt compleatly static so if you just slip they will most likely hold you
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gargrantuan
May 2, 2009, 5:20 PM
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BD is making an umbilical for next year, why not just buy one?
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angry
May 2, 2009, 5:29 PM
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maldaly wrote: james_va, You're going to get this a lot if this thread gains any momentum so here it is, Remember I said it first. Using umbilicals with leashless tools completely eliminates any advantage that you gain from going leashless. If dropping tools worries you, go back to leashes. Don't do it. BTW, I have never dropped a tool when climbing leashless. I can't say that about climbing with leashes. Mal
That's pretty much it. I've personally never dropped a tool either.
I've seen it on a few occasions and on one occasion my partner told me his umbilical kept him from dropping his tool. It's quite useful for certain climbers. I'm of the mindset that a warrior does not drop his sword but lots of people do.
I can readily match, switch, cross, fig 4, you name it with the umbilicals too. I only do it in the gym where a dropped tool might brain a girl scout. I haven't used them on real routes in a while though I'm confident I easily could.
For tether designs, I don't like mine that much so I won't get into it.
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robpatterson5
May 8, 2009, 5:05 AM
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Needlesports in the UK has the Grivel leash and shipping in my experice has been super inexpensive (ie. a pound sixty!). CAMP nanowires and Trango Superfly lockers work well with it.
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daneburns
May 8, 2009, 2:59 PM
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"Using umbilicals with leashless tools completely eliminates any advantage that you gain from going leashless. "
That is so ill informed as to be laughable. The list of hard core and well known alpinists using umbilicals is so long and complete it isn't worth writing up. Many of which have actually dropped a tool on something besides a top rope problem in the local quarry which is why umbilicals are becoming the norm not the exception.
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ryanb
May 8, 2009, 4:14 PM
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Heh, I work with alpinedave.
I think the shock cord is the same stuff that is inside tent poles. Get extra it is really useful stuff (I added ultralight ice axe loops to my bd bullet with some, it has other uses).
I am not much of an ice climber but I made mine with 9/16" climbing spec and it seems to work well enough.
Here is another article with some info and recommendations by someone who knows their shit.
A friend trying out my teather on lead.
(This post was edited by ryanb on May 8, 2009, 4:15 PM)
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gbmaz
May 8, 2009, 5:05 PM
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daneburns wrote: "Using umbilicals with leashless tools completely eliminates any advantage that you gain from going leashless. " That is so ill informed as to be laughable. The list of hard core and well known alpinists using umbilicals is so long and complete it isn't worth writing up. Many of which have actually dropped a tool on something besides a top rope problem in the local quarry which is why umbilicals are becoming the norm not the exception.
Yeah, that Malcolm Daly (owner of Trango, experience alpinist, designer of early leashless tools) should just shut his pie hole when it comes to stuff like this.
While I think he is incorrect in this case, he has earned the right to a strong opinion. His experience goes pretty far beyond top roping at a local quarry and I am sure he actually knows most of the "well known alpinists" you refer to personally.
He has been around the block a few times and gives back more to the community than most:
http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/2008_golden_piton_awards/index7.html
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daneburns
May 8, 2009, 8:03 PM
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Malcolm is a big boy he can defend himself.
In this case what he said was laughable.
Done that myself at least twice that I remember :)
Being wrong doesn't make you worthless, useless or unable to add to the community. Just makes him wrong in this particular case. Thought I'd point that out for the benefit of the community....or was it for the children..can't remember exactly.
Nice thing about the Internet all opinions are equal.
Umbilicals are here to stay. Fo all the obvious reasons. They work well for the intenended purpose and you still have 99% if not all the advantages of leashless tools.
How about a real discussion?
Dropping a tool on some bolted roadside crag where your buddy can chuck it back up to you is a bit different that being on things like these.
If you're on something long and you choose not to use umbilicals then I'll suggest you bring a third tool because borrowing your partner's tool makes everything slow down. Extra time out on a long route because umbilicals aren't "fair" isn't something I'd discuss seriously.
Similar situation with leashes. With a well designed tool, leashless climbing is much easier.
Good tools don't generally break these days. But I am loosing count of the leashless tools I have picked up on climbs.
Not a figure 4 insight.
(This post was edited by daneburns on May 8, 2009, 8:56 PM)
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maldaly
May 12, 2009, 2:20 AM
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The great thing about climbing is that we all have opinions about what is the best gear/technique/idea. Dane, I still haven't met those famous climbers you're talking about or maybe they're just embarrassed to show me their umbilicals. Whatever. That fact that I wear boxers and Dane wears a thong implies nothing about our masculinity (Sorry Dane, I couldn't resist;-)). It's all just opinions. BTW, YC is one of the earliest of the alpine leashless climbers. Refer to his classic tome, Climbing Ice, for more reasons to leave the leashes and umbilicals.
Hey, someone PM'd me with a question relevant to this forum and I dumped their message by accident. Sorry. Please PM me again.
I can't find a "Trash" folder anywhere. Once you delete a message, is it gone forever?
Mal
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daneburns
May 12, 2009, 5:17 AM
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maldaly wrote: ...I still haven't met those famous climbers you're talking about or maybe they're just embarrassed to show me their umbilicals.
Ya, right Mal :) I know you actually "know" most of them that I'll post.
When Mal and I were still kids umbilicals caught on and were used to keep tools and bodies intact. Back when it might take 3 men and a boy to get one screw in. Keeping your tools lashed to your body was the idea, not so different than they are used today.
Umbilicals were used on the 1st ascent of Slipstream. Not for aid but to keep from loosing a tool. John Lauchlan leading 1979. Jim Elzinga photo.
More recently Ueli Steck used them on the Eiger, GJ and the Matterhorn. Here on the M/C GJ.
How about Steve House, Vince Anderson and Marko Prezelj
Steve in S.A
Marko on N Twin
And Raphael Slawinski in Alaska
And Colin Haley, Rolando Garibotti, Maxime Turgeon and Mark Westman.
Ben Gilmore North But of Hunter
My point is a good many climbers serious about getting up big routes these days climb leashless and with umbilicals. The commercial umbilicals available today aren't sales gimics but alpine tools demanded by climbers actually out there putting up hard routes. I think you'll also find all these guys recommending umbilicals in the right environment.
And one more set on a new difficult mixed route in Alaska. Di Batista on the summit of Bradley.
Forgot....
It is such a huge advantage to climb leashless on any terrain with a well designed leashless tool that umbilicals pose little problem. Here is what Colin Haley has to say,
"Although at first a skeptic, I have come to believe that wrist leashes truly are a thing of the past and should not be used. This has nothing to do with style, but rather I think it is easier and more efficient to climb without wrist leashes. It is easier to shake out your forearms, faster to place protection, and often requires fewer tool placements. Dropping a tool is not an option on big routes, however, so it is best to use umbilical cords attached to your tools. In fact, you are much less likely to drop a tool using umbilicals than using wrist leashes. Umbilical cords are ideally elasticized so that they don’t hang so low and catch on gear, and should be made of material that won’t ice up really bad. Avoid any systems that require girth hitching your belay loop or tying knots to your tools. It is best for the umbilicals to attach to your belay loop using a biner so that you can quickly unclip them from your belay loop and clip them into the anchor at belays. It is best for the umbilicals to attach to your tools using mini biners so that you can quickly switch between having them clipped to the spike or the head of the tool (clip them to the head of the tool for low-angle terrain). Attaching a swivel to the harness-end of your umbilicals is a big help for reducing tangle when repeatedly switching tools from hand to hand. The most appropriate swivels, which are strong and light, can be found at commercial fishing supply stores"
You don't need to know who is climbing to easily see that the majority of big mixed and ice routes are getting done leashless and with umbilicals today.
(This post was edited by daneburns on May 12, 2009, 6:55 AM)
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Alpinisto
May 15, 2009, 3:01 PM
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ryanb wrote: Heh, I work with alpinedave. I think the shock cord is the same stuff that is inside tent poles. Get extra it is really useful stuff (I added ultralight ice axe loops to my bd bullet with some, it has other uses). I am not much of an ice climber but I made mine with 9/16" climbing spec and it seems to work well enough.
My partner and I made a set of AlpineDave's umbilicals this winter, using the materials you cited above. They work great, took all of a half-hour to fab up, and the partz cost all of about $10 per person (including biners). We didn't feel like dropping $40 each on the Grivel. YMMV, of course.
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james_va
May 17, 2009, 4:20 AM
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Guys, many thanks for all the input here. I'm grateful for all who took the time to reply.
On the shock cord proper, it doesn't seem to be too big an issue, so I'll roll with it.
Re: ideology, I'm thinking of umbilicals primarily as a nicety for multi-pitch routes. I've got some old-school Black Prophets that require wrist leashes (so yes, there's suspenders and a belt there, although even with the fancy unclippable Android leashes I upgraded to, there's still a chance of dropping a tool, esp. whilst placing protection, which would seem to be the most vulnerable time anyway) and some leash-or-leashless Camp Awaxes (that I'd have to drill a hole into to tie a loop for clipping umbilicals into).
Thanks again,
-James
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gargrantuan
May 18, 2009, 8:07 PM
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gbmaz wrote: Yeah, that Malcolm Daly (owner of Trango, experience alpinist, designer of early leashless tools) should just shut his pie hole when it comes to stuff like this. While I think he is incorrect in this case, he has earned the right to a strong opinion. His experience goes pretty far beyond top roping at a local quarry and I am sure he actually knows most of the "well known alpinists" you refer to personally. He has been around the block a few times and gives back more to the community than most: http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/2008_golden_piton_awards/index7.html
Dane doesn't need anyone defending him, but I'll say this: listen to the man, he's been around the block and has a damn impressive CV. he also has put more time and effort into researching the pros and cons of leashless climbing in the alpine than anyone i know. i trust that he's talked to the bulk of the people that he cited.
as an aside, when was the last time that Trango made anything relevant for alpine/ice climbing? they are on the very edge of the periphery in terms of relevance to modern alpine/mixed climbing.
sorry mal, i just couldn't resist.
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.sam.
May 23, 2009, 8:17 AM
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just wanted to add somthing cause someone menchened that bd will be making umbilicals next season, just wanted to say they sound perrty cool. two small steel clips to attach to tools, a perpriatory strech webbing that dosnt absorbe water, a new custom small swivel to prevent tangeling, the climber end is set up to be girth hitched on but a carabiner can be used and is the better opption in my oppinon. im on the slate to get one when they get some made ill report back
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daneburns
Jun 5, 2009, 6:23 PM
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I and my partners have been using the BD umbilical in proto type form and the Grivel that is available commercially for the last two winters. The BD recieves high marks and true raves from my partners. They love the swivel and the mini wire gate "hook" biners by BD. I like the simplier version from Grivel and it's simple stamped wire gate "biners".
But the BD proto types were so good and the detailing a step up on the Grivel, I suspect even I will be swayed into buying a pair once the final version hits the market this fall.
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crackers
Jun 16, 2009, 5:56 PM
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daneburns wrote: But the BD proto types were so good and the detailing a step up on the Grivel, I suspect even I will be swayed into buying a pair once the final version hits the market this fall.
I've used one of the BD proto's briefly last winter. They were very very nice indeed. But don't take my word or Dane's...
Dougald's reviewlet on his blog is all you should need. Dougald McDonald gets out a ton, and he's the former editor of R&I and that's his personal blog...
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