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abe_ascends
May 4, 2009, 3:18 AM
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Being bored at home due to an injury, I decided to play around with the equalette a bit this weekend. I constructed a 3-point anchor, using clove hitches on one side, and a figure-8 on the other, as displayed in the attached diagram. Everything seemed hunky-dorey until I weighted the anchor. In response to the load, the figure-8 slid up the cord to the top biner, thereby lengthening that arm of the anchor. Upon inspection, I could see that the extension was due to the figure-8 being a kind of slip-knot in this setup. The 8 is simply wrapped around the arm of the anchor, while the arm continues straight through the eight and up to the biner. Is this a flaw in the equalette, or is it a problem with my construction?
Second question: Assuming my construction is correct, is there a way to prevent the 8 from slipping and still maintain the adjustability of the arm? A clove hitch used in place of the 8 would do the job, however, I'm looking for a method that keeps both strands of cord on that side of the anchor actively sharing the load. That is, I want to maintain adjustability in that arm without creating a slack strand.
Any thoughts?
(This post was edited by abe_ascends on May 4, 2009, 3:28 AM)
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catbird_seat
May 4, 2009, 4:49 AM
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I think you need to tie the figure eight knot correctly. Tied correctly, it will not slip. You tied a slip knot.
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Bolter
May 4, 2009, 7:54 AM
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Just keep things simple. Your life depends on it.
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james481
May 4, 2009, 7:58 AM
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Because the limiting knots are generally left tied in the equalette between uses, sometimes one leg is seen tied in this configuration (with a figure-8 slip knot) simply to consume more cordage for that leg to position the power point correctly (see Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167 for an example of this). However, nothing says that leg has to be tied like that, and generally you'll see that loop simply clipped with a carabiner with no knot (also on Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167). In other words, it all has to do with how long you need that leg to be and not have to reposition the limiting knots and power point.
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ja1484
May 4, 2009, 11:05 AM
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You're overthinking this, almost everyone does it, and I have yet to figure out why.
Rather than tie a fig-8 on a single arm of an equallette, just tie that arm off short with a quick overhand and clip the anchor piece on that side below the knot. It won't slip, and even if it does you're still inside the rigging loop on that side of the equallette.
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hyhuu
May 4, 2009, 12:04 PM
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The figure-8 knot does not slip. Make sure you tied the correct knot.
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bill413
May 4, 2009, 12:25 PM
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It looks (& sounds) like you tied the figure eight knot around the strand running from the anchor to the power point. That is, you took the bight from the anchor and tied an eight only in that, wrapping & trapping the load strand. Thus, as others have said, you made a slip knot.
The frequent advice (although debated) is that if you are using clove hitches in a system, you should also have at least one eight (in case the hitches slip) (please, there are other threads for this debate!). However, in this system, you are dealing with a closed loop (the equallette), so there is not really a need for an eight - I would use all clove hitches (probably). I understand wanting both strands to share the load, but you haven't done that in the other legs...what makes this one special? 
A properly tied figure eight on a bight, or a bowline, or several other knots would work better for your purpose, a slip knot is not a good choice.
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billl7
May 4, 2009, 12:53 PM
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Here's another vote that you incorrectly tied the figure 8 on a bight - if so, that's a little scary that you did not recognize the problem. Actually, good on you for working this out at home.
An alternative to the figure 8 on a bight is to put two biners on that pro loop and independently clove hitch each strand to one biner - seems a waste of a biner though.
An aside: It is a little tricky to tie a figure 8 on a bight or overhand on a bight without fouling the equalizing feature of the equalette. This will improve with experience. This fiddle-i-ness is one of the criticisms of the equalette: that one sometimes has to return to a clove hitch and take the time to re-adjust. That said, for a 3-point anchor I usually tie an overhand on a bight for the one leg followed by clove hitching each strand on the other leg.
Bill
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billl7
May 4, 2009, 12:57 PM
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james481 wrote: Because the limiting knots are generally left tied in the equalette between uses, sometimes one leg is seen tied in this configuration ( with a figure-8 slip knot) simply to consume more cordage for that leg to position the power point correctly (see Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167 for an example of this). However, nothing says that leg has to be tied like that, and generally you'll see that loop simply clipped with a carabiner with no knot (also on Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167). In other words, it all has to do with how long you need that leg to be and not have to reposition the limiting knots and power point.
Bill
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fresh
May 4, 2009, 1:06 PM
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wtf is with the huge pics? can you resize them or something?
I'm at a loss as to why the figure 8 slipped. what you described is a slip knot, but in the picture it seems to be tied fine.
edit: oh yeah, and why didn't you clip the X correctly? are the two locking biners for redundancy? or did you just mess it up?
I used to love the equalette, but the more I climb, the more I just use the standard cordlette or if possible just a double-length sling.
some day I might find myself with nothing but four marginal pieces, where perfect equalization actually might make the difference. until then, the simplicity and efficiency of the cordlette/sling anchor is worth more to me.
(This post was edited by fresh on May 4, 2009, 1:11 PM)
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billl7
May 4, 2009, 1:16 PM
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fresh wrote: edit: oh yeah, and why didn't you clip the X correctly? are the two locking biners for redundancy? or did you just mess it up?
Edit: I don't mean to imply that one must always stick with "the standard". Indeed, The equalette I use is a variant on the one in the Long/Gaines book.
Bill
(This post was edited by billl7 on May 4, 2009, 1:24 PM)
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fresh
May 4, 2009, 2:20 PM
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look at how the lockers are clipped. that ain't right 
normally you clip two strands with a sliding X. so the only possible explanation was that he had clipped each locker to a different strand for a different form of redundancy. which is redundant, but requries an extra locker.
fwiw I don't think it matters all that much, I'm just curious.
(This post was edited by fresh on May 4, 2009, 2:22 PM)
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Tipton
May 4, 2009, 3:08 PM
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He clipped the lockers as described in Climbing Anchors 2nd Edition. This is specifically to avoid the Sliding X issues in vertical cracks. It is also one of the main issues with the Equallette. Using two lockers is a pain, and it limits the options for bringing up the second off the anchor. There are other (lengthy) threads addressing this issue.
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fresh
May 4, 2009, 3:28 PM
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woah, apparently I can't read. there is one picture with the setup the way I described it, which is what I've always done since I don't like clipping only one strand or bringing two lockers to clip in with. meh!
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Terry2124
May 4, 2009, 3:47 PM
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The fig 8 was not tied correctly, keep things simple.
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dan2see
May 4, 2009, 3:49 PM
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I like how you've used utilized your cord, it's neat and functional.
But to me, it seems odd that the left leg of your anchor uses dynamic equalization, but the right pair are static.
For this anchor, I would build a short equalette on two of the hangers, then connect that to a longer equalette using a longer sling.
This equalette-on-equalette works real smooth. It looks neater, too, but in fact webbing is harder to setup than your cord. I could have cut and tied the slings with cord.
(This post was edited by dan2see on May 4, 2009, 3:58 PM)
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shoo
May 4, 2009, 3:56 PM
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Just as a clarification regarding the fig 8. It sounds as though you ran the doubled end of the cord through the single point, then tied a fig. 8 OVER the cord coming from the anchor.
If, for whatever reason, you are intent on doing it this way, you should instead fold over the end strands and tie a fig 8 on a bight, and clip the bight to the 'biner. If you look closely at the fig.8 in the picture, you will see that it consists of 4 strands tied together. if i am correct, yours would only have two.
Better yet, don't even bother with the knot on that end. Start your equalette from the single point end by clipping to cord directly to the single point 'biner, and tie your overhand limiter knots from there. Use the two-point side clove hitches to adjust for the anchor length by adjusting the slack between the points.
In general, I prefer the keep the double fisherman's in the unweighted slack part of the anchor, though it doesn't really make much of a difference.
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shoo
May 4, 2009, 3:59 PM
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dan2see wrote: For this anchor, I would build a short equalette on two of the hangers, then connect that to a longer equalette using a longer sling. This equalette-on-equalette works real smooth. It looks neater, too, but in fact webbing is harder to setup than your cord. I could have cut and tied the slings with cord.
What you have described in your picture is not the equalette. Rather, you have compounded two sliding X's, one of which has limiter knots. Though similar in concept, it is not quite the same thing.
Edited to remove image tags.
(This post was edited by shoo on May 4, 2009, 3:59 PM)
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jt512
May 4, 2009, 4:39 PM
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bill413 wrote: It looks (& sounds) like you tied the figure eight knot around the strand running from the anchor to the power point. That is, you took the bight from the anchor and tied an eight only in that, wrapping & trapping the load strand. Thus, as others have said, you made a slip knot. The frequent advice (although debated) is that if you are using clove hitches in a system, you should also have at least one eight (in case the hitches slip) ( please, there are other threads for this debate!).
Actually, I'm going to debate it here, too, since it hasn't been discussed in the context of an equalette. Tests have shown that clove hitches tied in static ropes will slip, so the clove hitch might not be the best choice for an equalette.
That said, I do object to tying into the anchor with just two clove hitches, as pictured. I'd probably back up the tie-in with a figure-8-on-a-bight to one of the anchor points. There is another thread to debate this latter point.
Jay
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clc
May 4, 2009, 4:48 PM
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looking at that pic , now I know why I don't use an equalette. too complicated.
and yes learn how to tie a figure -8
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bill413
May 4, 2009, 5:00 PM
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jt512 wrote: bill413 wrote: It looks (& sounds) like you tied the figure eight knot around the strand running from the anchor to the power point. That is, you took the bight from the anchor and tied an eight only in that, wrapping & trapping the load strand. Thus, as others have said, you made a slip knot. The frequent advice (although debated) is that if you are using clove hitches in a system, you should also have at least one eight (in case the hitches slip) ( please, there are other threads for this debate!). Actually, I'm going to debate it here, too, since it hasn't been discussed in the context of an equalette. Tests have shown that clove hitches tied in static ropes will slip, so the clove hitch might not be the best choice for an equalette. That said, I do object to tying into the anchor with just two clove hitches, as pictured. I'd probably back up the tie-in with a figure-8-on-a-bight to one of the anchor points. There is another thread to debate this latter point. Jay
Bill
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james481
May 4, 2009, 5:03 PM
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billl7 wrote: james481 wrote: Because the limiting knots are generally left tied in the equalette between uses, sometimes one leg is seen tied in this configuration ( with a figure-8 slip knot) simply to consume more cordage for that leg to position the power point correctly (see Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167 for an example of this). However, nothing says that leg has to be tied like that, and generally you'll see that loop simply clipped with a carabiner with no knot (also on Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167). In other words, it all has to do with how long you need that leg to be and not have to reposition the limiting knots and power point. A slip knot in an anchor is a bad idea ... it is a bad idea to allow nylon running over nylon under lead fall forces. Bill
Agreed that there are better ways to do this, however, as I pointed out, Long's Climbing Anchors (P. 167) does show an equalette which appears to be rigged in this exact manner. Personally, I would choose another way, but I think if you snug the "slip knot" up to the biner to minimize slippage, it would work alright.
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jt512
May 4, 2009, 5:34 PM
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james481 wrote: billl7 wrote: james481 wrote: Because the limiting knots are generally left tied in the equalette between uses, sometimes one leg is seen tied in this configuration ( with a figure-8 slip knot) simply to consume more cordage for that leg to position the power point correctly (see Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167 for an example of this). However, nothing says that leg has to be tied like that, and generally you'll see that loop simply clipped with a carabiner with no knot (also on Long's Climbing Anchors P. 167). In other words, it all has to do with how long you need that leg to be and not have to reposition the limiting knots and power point. A slip knot in an anchor is a bad idea ... it is a bad idea to allow nylon running over nylon under lead fall forces. Bill Agreed that there are better ways to do this, however, as I pointed out, Long's Climbing Anchors (P. 167) does show an equalette which appears to be rigged in this exact manner. Personally, I would choose another way, but I think if you snug the "slip knot" up to the biner to minimize slippage, it would work alright.
No matter what the picture in the book looks like, the OP has somehow managed to botch the figure 8 on a bight. Correctly tied, it will not slip.
Jay
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hafilax
May 4, 2009, 6:16 PM
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Butt the slip knot up against the biner when it's tied.
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jt512
May 4, 2009, 6:21 PM
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hafilax wrote: Butt the slip knot up against the biner when it's tied.
No. Don't tie a slip knot in the first place. Tie a figure-8-on-a-bight.
Jay
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