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locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios?
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Partner neuroshock


May 7, 2009, 1:14 PM
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locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios?
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When routesetting at a gym that I work at, I like to try sequences a few moves at a time to check that they flow and that the moves can be linked in the way i'm envisioning, not too reachy, etc. Most of the time this is happening, I'm on self-belay on a Gri-gri on static line in a slingshot setup tied off to an anchor. I do tie knots in the brake strand every several feet and clip them to my harness with a locker as a backup. However, I would rather it never come to that.

When trying moves the belay device and carabiner flop around a little and every now 'n then I look down and, to my horror, I find myself in a cross-loaded carabiner situation (either the locking sleeve caught on my belay loop or on the device). I fear for the day I ever pop-off in an uncontrolled fall into such a situation. Especially as I'd be 80' above a concrete landing.

I recall that there used to be a screw-gate locking carabiner that had a plastic swiveling arm that would only snap closed if the sleeve was in 'locked' position. It also seemed to prevent cross-loading scenarios from happening. I can't remember the manufacturer of that product. Does anyone else? Any alternative DIY solutions that come to mind?

Thanks!


(This post was edited by neuroshock on May 7, 2009, 1:15 PM)


bill413


May 7, 2009, 1:17 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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DIY: Athletic tape the grigri to the biner at the correct place. I'd let the harness end take care of itself.


james481


May 7, 2009, 1:19 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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I believe you're thinking of the DMM Belay Master http://dmmclimbing.com/...p?pid=3&pid2=207. However, normally in situations where cross-loading seems likely, I'll utilize a Maillon Rapide (Quick Link), but I'm not sure how well that would work with a GriGri.


hafilax


May 7, 2009, 1:23 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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DMM Belay Master 2 (I can't find any images that aren't flash)

Some people use a stainless steel maillon for that application.


acorneau


May 7, 2009, 1:47 PM
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Re: [hafilax] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
DMM Belay Master 2 (I can't find any images that aren't flash)




Partner drector


May 7, 2009, 2:06 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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neuroshock wrote:
...I'm on self-belay on a Gri-gri on static line in...

Did you say "static line"? That sounds like it might put a bit more stress on the gear than is really necessary. Especially 80 feet off the ground. Why not use a standard dynamic climbing rope to soften things up a bit? Then again, 80 feet of static rope is not that static.

Tape or various specialty carabiners can be used. Make sure that the Gri Gri cannot shift onto the spine of the carabiner since that can break the Gri Gri. The BM doesn't protect against that. If it's not obvious, when the Gri Gri hole is around the spine of the biner and the rope gets tight, the Gri Gri can break at the hole instead of sliding up onto the head/top of the carabiner. I read a report a few years back about some expert guy, whose name I can't remember, taking a 100+ foot wipper because a short fall broke his self-belay Gri Gri. He was expert enough at big wall solo techniques to know to tie into the end of the rope. It must have been a hell of a ride.

The latests BM looks cool:



Dave


rtwilli4


May 7, 2009, 2:17 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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I used to laugh at that plastic thing but then I used one for a few days and really liked it. It makes a lot of sense if your sport cragging or self belaying like yourself. Go ahead and get one of those and not only have you solved your problem, but you get a DMM carabiner... the best on the market.


Khoi


May 7, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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The picture posted by acroneau is the DMM Belay Master.

The picture posted by drector is the DMM Belay Master 2.

The Belay Master 2 has a few improvements over its predecessor. It now uses the keylock instead of having that really annoying deep notch, and, the plastic clip is held more securely in place and can no longer slide up and down the spine.

In addition to preventing cross-loading, another benefit of the Belay Master is that the clip can only be engaged if the biner is locked. It gives you a visual indicator of whether or not the biner is locked.

Another option is the Simond Spider HMS + BLC.



http://www.backcountry.com/...der-HMS-%2B-BLC.html

It also has a notchless nose.


Partner neuroshock


May 7, 2009, 2:59 PM
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Re: [drector] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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Thanks all, that was exactly what I was thinking of! Didn't think to check DMM's website (BD, Petzl, Omega Pacific, Metolius, CAMP, Wild Country, Trango, and Kong came to mind)

drector wrote:
neuroshock wrote:
...I'm on self-belay on a Gri-gri on static line in...

Did you say "static line"? That sounds like it might put a bit more stress on the gear than is really necessary. Especially 80 feet off the ground. Why not use a standard dynamic climbing rope to soften things up a bit? Then again, 80 feet of static rope is not that static.

Yep. Static. The wall is 95'-100' tall and in a slingshot TR setup that's ~200' of rope. Even with semi-static gym ropes there's enough stretch that people can still "deck" from 10'+ up. Hence static. That was the explanation I was given when I had a similar reaction, anyway.


drector wrote:
Tape or various specialty carabiners can be used. Make sure that the Gri Gri cannot shift onto the spine of the carabiner since that can break the Gri Gri. The BM doesn't protect against that. If it's not obvious, when the Gri Gri hole is around the spine of the biner and the rope gets tight, the Gri Gri can break at the hole instead of sliding up onto the head/top of the carabiner. I read a report a few years back about some expert guy, whose name I can't remember, taking a 100+ foot wipper because a short fall broke his self-belay Gri Gri. He was expert enough at big wall solo techniques to know to tie into the end of the rope. It must have been a hell of a ride.

I tie backups in the line as well (every 10'-15' or so) but that's a scenario that I wouldn't've thought of. I'm thinking that a few good wraps of athletic tape at the bend of the carabiner will make a diameter too large for the Gri-gri hole to pass over.

-Mike


jt512


May 7, 2009, 3:35 PM
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Re: [drector] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
The latests BM looks cool:



Dave

It looks like they solved the problem of having to find the sweet spot on the spine of the carabiner for the gate shroud. With the old belay master you had to have the shroud positioned within like 10 Angstroms of the exact right spot in order to lock down the shroud.

Jay


Carnage


May 8, 2009, 7:29 AM
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Re: [jt512] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
drector wrote:
The latests BM looks cool:

[img]http://www.mountaingear.com/item_images/mnfct2//common/dmm/m_214230_s06_bll.jpg[/img]

Dave

It looks like they solved the problem of having to find the sweet spot on the spine of the carabiner for the gate shroud. With the old belay master you had to have the shroud positioned within like 10 Angstroms of the exact right spot in order to lock down the shroud.

Jay

are you saying you dont bring your electron microscope with you to the crag to help line everything up?


coolcat83


May 8, 2009, 8:08 AM
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Re: [neuroshock] locking carabiner preventing cross-load scenarios? [In reply to]
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DMM belay master is the way to go, i use one with a microscender for self tr belay, just put the gri gri in the smaller end of the biner (might have to snap the little plastic thing off to move it around if the locking collar won't clear the grigri hole, but it snaps back on just fine)


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