Well, you, camhead, lena-chita have stated in so many words that the 5.10 climber creates clusterfucks, and in my experience at every place that I have ever climbed, this is not the case.

The 5.10 climber (someone who can really climb 5.10 on lead – trad or sport) in Northern California is certainly not the incompetent boob that according to you three the 5.10 climber in the east appears to be.

one 5.10 climber at a time can be manageable- it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard. not so hard that there aren't high school and college kids that can send it (or, more relevant to the discussion of clusterfuckery, bolt to bolt the routes) on their very first trip outside.

my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.

the entry fee to a 5.10 crag is not, as you keep trying to suggest, being a solid 5.10 leader.

it's being able to get ONE person in your party to the top in some fashion so they can set the route up. this tendency to be in big parties and to toprope makes a 5.10 crag with x number of people and y number of routes more crowded and more frustrating than a 5.12 crag with x people and y routes because routes turn over faster.

[it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard.

my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.

Not really applicable. Weren't you a gym rat for a while before you wandered out into the real world?

Got it, so it’s groups setting up camp on popular routes at a popular crag that is the problem, and where you climb those routes are primarily in the 5.10 range whereas the 5.12 climbs see little crowds and thus it’s more advantageous (and fun) to be a 5.12 climber.

yeah, that's not the case. the .12s at the red probably see 80% or more of the traffic of the 10s in a lot of places. the difference being that people are LEADING the 12's, and are happy to let you work in. as lena said "sure, climb on my draws!" or even "oh hey climb on our rope- so and so wants to top rope it but we're not using it right the second so go ahead."

maybe degain's crags are just generally less crowded. i accept that that would make a huge difference. but no, i don't believe that everybody climbing 5.10 at his crags (especially sport!) are experienced and cluster-free.

Sure, I’ve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just aren’t the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.

you win the award for missing the point.

I don't see how, but I'm all ears if you're willing to explain.

the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.


and yes, benkenobi, a lot of people are really nice. and the longer they've been climbing, they more they "get it" with route sharing, and the nicer they tend to be. and the vast majority of the time, there are no clusterfucks anywhere, because too many clusterfucks means somebody gets hurt. but where there are, they tend tend to be with groups of 5.10 climbers. i've certainly never had anyone tell me there is 1 more person only to sling 5 more people onto the flail-TR on a 5.12.

i've been trying, and you've been deliberately twisting everything i've said.

it's certainly not that there are malicious, marauding groups of people trying to ruin other people's days. mostly it's just that you say people at 5.10 crags are 5.10 climbers, and obtusely refuse to recognize the reality that a lot of people are on 5.10s that are not solid 5.10 leaders.

I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that.

a lot of people who are on 5.10s are not solid 5.10 climbers. or the group only contains one solid 5.10 climber. the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.

and the warm-up crags, and the crags that have multiple climbs in the range of those people tend to be cluster fucks. like i said, there are plenty of college groups that have one guy or one girl that can clip the chains on some 5.10s, barely. or they try and top rope on the draws side of a half-lead route (stopped people from doing this on at least two occasions) they top rope through the anchors, they hang for half an hour when they are people patently waiting, they eat lunch with the rope hanging. or the group that gets there first puts up all 4 or 5 warmups. or they send somebody up to clean the route that doesn't know how to clean. or to tie their knot. all of these things i have seen.

I actually never obtusely refused to recognize that there are people on 5.10s who are not solid 5.10 climbers. In my initial post I responded to this statement :


I understood 5.10 climbers to be just that, 5.10 climbers, not the category of people who jump on 5.10s but are not solid leading at the grade.

Why can’t you just get that where I climb or have climbed (apparently in places that you have not) this is not at all commonplace?

I climb 5.10 at the Gunks. I rarely see anyone on these routes (with a few exceptions), let alone anyone clusterf@%*ing them.

What's my point? I don't know, but this whole thread is idiotic. Where I climb, solid 5.10 climbers are not cfing anything.

Josh

sooo... you're agreeing with me? I think you are.

At the Red, 5.10 climbers are the clusterfucks. At the Gunks, they are not.

Actually, I would be willing to bet that there is a higher proportion of RRG regulars that climb 5.12 sport than Gunks regulars who climb 5.10.

(fires shot across the bow)
Why are you guys so weak out there?

I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves.

this is kerrect.



I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves.

Josh

to someone who gives excellent second, no less.

I don't think camhead has yet clipped the anchors of something i couldn't follow.

I just thought I would bump this thread after having a great memorial day weekend at the Gunks. Yeah, you heard me, busiest weekend of the year, at the most crowded crag in the East, probably in the nation.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, first, it has nothing to do with 5.12. There were endless lines on nearly every moderate route. However, everything 5.10a and over was open! We did not wait in line for one single route; we got plenty of climbing in and had a great time.

Once again, it's a reason to climb harder: fewer clusterfucks, better climbing experiences.

foreshadowing?

shaddup.