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mrdeadpt
May 21, 2009, 3:06 AM
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I've been climbing at The Edge for quite a few years now. Nice to see the route information Tomcat has added to the route database. I have a question about Great Wall, though: Tom, you describe the 5.8 line up the middle, a 5.7 line to the right of that, and a 5.10 line up the "left margin". I'm wondering if you--or anyone else--know anything about the pretty-damned hard line with two silver-colored bolts (that have been there for many years) that lies between your "left margin" line and the 5.8 up the middle? IMHO said line is the hardest on the Great Wall--at least a 5.11.
Thanks!
Mr. D
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tomcat
May 21, 2009, 2:25 PM
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Nope,sorry Mr Deadpoint,no idea on that one.I've seen people asking about it before,and that it is hard.
Did you guys ever find the stuff behind?I keep saying it's the back of the Great Wall,but really it could be back a little further.
There's a short leadable crack all the way to the right on that wall too.Past the J tower.
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joeforte
May 21, 2009, 9:50 PM
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I've climbed the route you describe Mrdeadpoint. It's a bit contrived, because you can make it easier by using holds from the routes on either side of it. If you stay directly in line with the bolts, it's pretty nice. I'd say hard 11, soft 12ish.
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mrdeadpt
May 22, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Yeah, I concur with you on the grade of that line (I'm just a little reluctant to peg it as a twelve) and that it can be made easier with holds to either side of it. I've always thought that the guy who placed the two old, silver-colored bolts was likely the climber who conceived of the route, that he might have sent it, and could rightly decree which holds were "out". I have done the whole line--in pieces--but, unfortunately am too fat and run out of gas before making a critical lunge through what I consider the crux, about 3/4 way up. I have known more than a few very strong climbers who once climbed in that area and do not doubt they could have sent the .12 variation straight-up.
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mrdeadpt
May 22, 2009, 11:26 AM
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I eye-balled things in the Great Wall vicinity just the other night, but did not have time to fully explore during this after-work session. I came home afterward, and was reading over your route descriptions in the database to try to square things. We have the Great Wall. Its left margin forms a sharp arete. If you went around this arete, you have another, "backside" face which has quite a bit of lichen on it, but which I believe may be ascended via a small, staggering crack up its middle. (I've never known anyone to climb said face--and have never seen any chalk on it--so maybe it doesn't "go".) This "backside" of the Great Wall forms an acute angle with the next face to your left, or upstream on the Tohickon--and it is this "next" face--which is a uniquely rusty color--which I assume your clan calls the "Rotwand" (red wall in German, right?) This Rotwand goes left and ends at another dramatically-overhung arete. The Rotwand face has a line more-or-less up the middle (ending in a two-bolt anchor) that goes .11-ish. In the past, I have also started deep in the inside corner (Rotwand right) and have hand traversed left on a horizontal crack to finish by going up somewhere near the arete (and there still is a piton where this goes up). I hope this makes everything clear between us old-timers and new-timers!
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joeforte
May 22, 2009, 4:13 PM
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The last climb you describe is called "Rotwand". Tom Stryker told me a good story about how they each took turns traversing out to that pin, giving it a few whacks with the hammer until they were pumped out, and then traversing back. When they finally felt it was solid enough, they sent it... ground up. Now THAT is good style!
The thin crimpy line that goes straight up the middle of the face is a super nice line. I've pondered leading it on gear, but I think it would be more of a solo. I wonder if anyone would mind an added pin or bolt? I haven't heard of anyone leading it as it stands... Tom?
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tomcat
May 25, 2009, 11:50 PM
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The only line I am aware of being climbed on the Rotwand was that one hand traversing out to the overhang/nose,and up.Way psyched the pins has remained.It's twenty five years old by the way....
We did no route up the center of that wall,so have at it.
EB Phone Home is on the opposing wall,just about center.The business was a difficult stand up passing a horizontal crack that I placed a crappy piton to either side of and led on doubles.
Glad to hear you guys are exploring the place.
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joeforte
May 26, 2009, 2:14 AM
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Tom, is there anyone else we should contact about that route up the middle? There are a set of anchors above it...
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tomcat
May 26, 2009, 11:29 AM
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I don't know anything about that one either Joe.Asking here as you have would be my next step too.
Active new routers there come in waves....like you guys are now.
Good Luck....Tom
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joeforte
May 26, 2009, 4:41 PM
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Thanks Tom, I just wanna make sure we're being "new routers" and not "retrobolters". I talked to a few locals, and they said they'd love to see that route bolted. Leading it would be much safer than getting on your belly to clip the anchors for a toprope!
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mrdeadpt
May 27, 2009, 8:31 PM
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Anyone else with an opinion about bolting that Rotwand face?
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tomcat
May 28, 2009, 11:39 AM
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As long as it's not the line we did,there is really nothing I can say.Mel Hamel,Tom Moffatt and I had our run of the place,and climbed the lines we could with the gear we had at the time.I'm a bit surprised small cams did not open some possibilities though,as we had none at the time.
I posted those routes in the hopes I could avoid them being bolted,as I had heard about the Great Wall bolting,and there seems to be an out of control situation developing over at the main cliff at Stover.
Recently I became aware that someone replaced our tied off pins on the Crypt with a bolt,and I guess replaced our 1/4 inch bolt as well.I was OK with that,but then the other day I read about someone having difficulty between the second and third bolt...what is with people and their drills these days?We climbed the entire first pitch with no bolts at all,ground up,difficulty unknown.
Likewise Welcome to Stover,was climbed ground up.I placed one bolt from a hook,pulled my rope and led it.There was a second crux at the overhang,that took a reasonable cam,now I understand that has been bolted too.Why do people there think it is OK to do this stuff?
I guess as far as bolting at the Edge,I would just hope people have climbed the other standards there first,before bolting stuff,to see what can be done without.Those being Fruition,Shattered,Flattered,Central Butress Direct.
Thunder Road was a good route until someone got off route above the overhang,whipped and pulled the key flake that held the piton off.You might think about placing a bolt under that roof.
Tom Stryker
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joeforte
May 28, 2009, 5:42 PM
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Thanks Tom. I can assure you we share the same ethic. I took a real close look at the face in question one day. I climbed it on TR with a bunch of small cams and wires with the intention of figuring out the gear and then leading it. I found one or two crappy micro-cam placements in a flaring horizontal, and that was it. My conclusion was that it would basicly be a solo. Maybe it can be bolted on lead with hooks... I wouldn't mind the challenge!
That really sucks that a bunch of bolts were added to old trad routes at Stover. Why doesn't someone go remove them?
Maybe we can meet up one afternoon and "walk the edge". I'd like to get to know the place a little better, from a "first hand" experience.
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mrdeadpt
Jun 10, 2009, 3:18 PM
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For what it's worth, we have made a TR attempt at climbing the backside of The Great Wall via a meandering crack. Have not yet seen or come across any pitons or other sign of past traffic. No one topped-out on this line--yet.
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joeforte
Jun 10, 2009, 3:37 PM
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Mrdeadpt, are you possibly referring to EB phone home? Check the description on the route list... It sounds like the route you describe. I don't remember seeing any other cracks on that face, but I could have possibly overlooked something.
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mrdeadpt
Jun 10, 2009, 4:40 PM
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Maybe that is EB! Tom S. says it's on the downstream wall. It's pretty damned hard--maybe harder than the .11-ish line on the Rotwand face.
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tomcat
Jun 10, 2009, 7:26 PM
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Yeah I found it hard too.It took me several attempts.Crux was a very dicey stand-up.My guess is someone took the pins,they were easy pickins'.
At the time the hardest leads I think I had were some easy 11's,Too Steep for My Lichen,Thin Slabs Direct.I got Welcome to Stover right away after placing the bolt,EB took me several attempts on different days,especially getting the pins placed on lead....so it could be an 11.
Have fun boyz....
Really just didn't have a measuring stick.I never tried toproping it....lol....
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joeforte
Jun 11, 2009, 1:13 PM
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Good info Tom. I haven't toproped that line because I'd like to try to do it in the same style; On lead, ground up. I've never placed a pin in my life, but I could only imagine how hard it would be to do on the sharp end! Hopefully the horizontal will take small cams... otherwise I might be SOL.
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tomcat
Jun 11, 2009, 4:44 PM
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Good for you Joe,and I wish you luck.I had a lot of fun with it.No idea about small cams.I used two pitons,and left them of course,in the era before there were any cams smaller than a #1 Friend.I don't recall why I placed two,but it was either because neither was truck,or,more likely,they were off to the side a lot,which they were.I do remember them being to each side of me at the business,I used double ropes.
Glad you guys are enjoying the place and making the most of the ground up adventures to be had there.
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joeforte
Jul 14, 2009, 5:27 PM
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Ok, so we got back out to the Edge Last night. Here's a little TR:
Obscure objective feels about 12a. I worked it on lead, taking a few falls on those old SMC "death hangers", as John Long calls them. They should be replaced.
The crimpy direct line up the Rotwand feels about 11c/d. We worked it to find the best bolt locations, but to our surprise, we found thin, marginal gear the whole way up. The plan now is to lead it on gear, doubling up on pieces and possibly using screamers. We decided against bolting it for two reasons:
1. It crosses over The Rotwand, which was the original trad line on the face, and the bolts would distract from this classic.
2. The face is too clean and asthetic to have ugly bolts in it. The gear is thin and marginal, but it's there. It will go on gear.
Tom, as far as EB phone home goes, I could not find any gear, and I could not tell where the original pitons were. There was a horizontal about 10 feet up, but it was a thin, flaring seam. Were they knifeblades by any chance? What do we do about missing pitons? Replace them? 
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tomcat
Jul 15, 2009, 2:46 PM
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As I recall Joe,the crux is right there by the flaring horizontal seam,a difficult stand -up move. I had placed a piton to either side,seemed like there was five feet or so between them.You guys sound plenty diligent and clever enough with small gear,so as far as I am concerned it's Ok to place a bolt in it.I think there is a decent cam,maybe #1 Friend size?? higher up.I'd say replace the pins,but the fact I placed two leads me to assume they were jingus even when new.
Good job going straight up Rotwand too.that's some nice rock on that wall.
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joeforte
Aug 19, 2009, 11:47 AM
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Last week I replaced both rusty bolts on "Obscure Objective". They are nice new 4"x3/8" stainless wedge anchors with red Metolius hangers.
The anchors above the arete on that wall are HORRIBLE! Both bolts are through thin plates of rock, and the entire piece of rock is cracked and unsupported from below. I was sketched out just hanging from them. I looked for a more suitable location, but all of the rock is bad in that spot. I was thinking of moving the anchor to the right, into some better rock, but then it would require a directional to climb the arete. Any opinions?
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mrdeadpt
Aug 26, 2009, 8:13 PM
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Any improvement is appreciated...at least by me. Not sure about that situation with the anchor over the arete. I've never looked that closely at it. We routinely TR the arete from the anchor over the middle of The Great Wall. Offhand, I don't know that moving the arete-top anchor right will be all that big a deal. I'd say use your best judgement.
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rock_fencer
Aug 26, 2009, 8:17 PM
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could you drill the anchor bolts on the top of the cliff and extend w/ chain for the anchor to hang over the edge? Ofcourse you would have to make sure they are relatively equalized.
I think that would probably be your best best without moving the anchors laterally.
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joeforte
Aug 27, 2009, 1:03 AM
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rock_fencer wrote: could you drill the anchor bolts on the top of the cliff and extend w/ chain for the anchor to hang over the edge? Ofcourse you would have to make sure they are relatively equalized. I think that would probably be your best best without moving the anchors laterally.
Just curious, are you familiar with the climb? The anchors are currently on top, with chains hanging over the edge, just like you describe. The problem is that the rock directly above the route is very fractured. There is better rock to the right, but then the anchor would hang over "obscure objective", and a directional or a mild swing would be required to climb the arete. In my opinion, the current anchor is really really bad, and people use it nearly every day. It's literally a time-bomb.
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