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clausti


May 20, 2009, 6:16 AM
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Re: [degaine] 5.12? [In reply to]
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degaine wrote:
Well, you, camhead, lena-chita have stated in so many words that the 5.10 climber creates clusterfucks, and in my experience at every place that I have ever climbed, this is not the case.

one 5.10 climber at a time can be manageable- it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

In reply to:
The 5.10 climber (someone who can really climb 5.10 on lead Ė trad or sport) in Northern California is certainly not the incompetent boob that according to you three the 5.10 climber in the east appears to be.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard. not so hard that there aren't high school and college kids that can send it (or, more relevant to the discussion of clusterfuckery, bolt to bolt the routes) on their very first trip outside.

my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red. and i was a slooooow leader who'd rather toprope at the time, so i'm sure i contributed to the crowding of the crags. trad climbing, same story. 5.9/5.10 for my first few routes. and while it was cool, because I was with other leaders who were more experienced than me, it would be easy to see how i could have gone off on my own and clusterfucked it up on some 5.10 trad.

the entry fee to a 5.10 crag is not, as you keep trying to suggest, being a solid 5.10 leader. it's being able to get ONE person in your party to the top in some fashion so they can set the route up. this tendency to be in big parties and to toprope makes a 5.10 crag with x number of people and y number of routes more crowded and more frustrating than a 5.12 crag with x people and y routes because routes turn over faster. it's like a parking lot that people park in all day versus one with a 2 hour limit. same size parking lot, same number of cars in it, on average, but which one is easier to get a spot in?

edited to bold what i feel is the most important point.


(This post was edited by clausti on May 20, 2009, 6:19 AM)


degaine


May 20, 2009, 7:15 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
degaine wrote:
Well, you, camhead, lena-chita have stated in so many words that the 5.10 climber creates clusterfucks, and in my experience at every place that I have ever climbed, this is not the case.

one 5.10 climber at a time can be manageable- it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

As one poster mentioned, cliffs like Rifle Ė where apparently 5.12 is the entry fee Ė see crowds and lines. Perhaps it is simply lots of climbers congregating in the same place for the same routes that is the problem?

clausti wrote:
In reply to:
The 5.10 climber (someone who can really climb 5.10 on lead Ė trad or sport) in Northern California is certainly not the incompetent boob that according to you three the 5.10 climber in the east appears to be.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard. not so hard that there aren't high school and college kids that can send it (or, more relevant to the discussion of clusterfuckery, bolt to bolt the routes) on their very first trip outside.

I never stated that 5.10 was hard, simply that where I climb or have climbed the 5.10 climber apparently has more experience than where you, camhead, lena-chita and gg climb. In my experience someone who climbs 5.10 trad on a regular basis rarely produces the ďclusterfuckeryĒ with regard to ropes, being slow, etc., that has been mentioned.

clausti wrote:
my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.

Noted. Perhaps you and the others could accept that 5.10 where I climb and have climbed is certainly not a gumby grade?


clausti wrote:
the entry fee to a 5.10 crag is not, as you keep trying to suggest, being a solid 5.10 leader.

Iím only trying to suggest that what camhead, lena-chita, gg and you have experienced cannot be used as a generalization.

clausti wrote:
it's being able to get ONE person in your party to the top in some fashion so they can set the route up. this tendency to be in big parties and to toprope makes a 5.10 crag with x number of people and y number of routes more crowded and more frustrating than a 5.12 crag with x people and y routes because routes turn over faster.

Got it, so itís groups setting up camp on popular routes at a popular crag that is the problem, and where you climb those routes are primarily in the 5.10 range whereas the 5.12 climbs see little crowds and thus itís more advantageous (and fun) to be a 5.12 climber.

Not a problem where I climb or have regularly climbed.


justroberto


May 20, 2009, 7:57 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
[it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.
This is true.

Rob's List of 5.10 Gumby Clusterfuck Crags:
Summersville Lake
NRG-Junkyard, Bubba City
RRG Sport Crags
Potash Road
Red Rocks
IC?
Anything around Austin.

Crags where you'll never wait in line for a 5.10:
Seneca
Enchanted Rock
NRG - Endless/Beauty
North Carolina (other than Crowder's)
RRG gear routes


In reply to:
oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard.
It is for me, depending on the area. I somehow manage to injure myself any time I venture into 11 territory.

In reply to:
my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.
Not really applicable. Weren't you a gym rat for a while before you wandered out into the real world?


clausti


May 20, 2009, 9:32 AM
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Re: [justroberto] 5.12? [In reply to]
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justroberto wrote:

In reply to:
my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.
Not really applicable. Weren't you a gym rat for a while before you wandered out into the real world?

i would actually say my gym-ratism makes it more applicable.

lots and lots of high school and college kids get up some 5.10's on their first trip outside. groups of these people are frequently what clusters up a crag. i just don't believe that every crag in socal magically screens all the college kids out. without some kind of magic filter, you're going to have some gumbies climbing 5.10 at a crag where there are bolted 5.10s.

maybe degain's crags are just generally less crowded. i accept that that would make a huge difference. but no, i don't believe that everybody climbing 5.10 at his crags (especially sport!) are experienced and cluster-free.


clausti


May 20, 2009, 9:36 AM
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Re: [degaine] 5.12? [In reply to]
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degaine wrote:
Got it, so itís groups setting up camp on popular routes at a popular crag that is the problem, and where you climb those routes are primarily in the 5.10 range whereas the 5.12 climbs see little crowds and thus itís more advantageous (and fun) to be a 5.12 climber.

yeah, that's not the case. the .12s at the red probably see 80% or more of the traffic of the 10s in a lot of places. the difference being that people are LEADING the 12's, and are happy to let you work in. as lena said "sure, climb on my draws!" or even "oh hey climb on our rope- so and so wants to top rope it but we're not using it right the second so go ahead."


Partner cracklover


May 20, 2009, 11:12 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
degaine wrote:
Got it, so itís groups setting up camp on popular routes at a popular crag that is the problem, and where you climb those routes are primarily in the 5.10 range whereas the 5.12 climbs see little crowds and thus itís more advantageous (and fun) to be a 5.12 climber.

yeah, that's not the case. the .12s at the red probably see 80% or more of the traffic of the 10s in a lot of places. the difference being that people are LEADING the 12's, and are happy to let you work in. as lena said "sure, climb on my draws!" or even "oh hey climb on our rope- so and so wants to top rope it but we're not using it right the second so go ahead."

Rumney is much the same, with only two notable exceptions that I can think of. If you plan to get on Flesh for Lulu or Social Outcast you should expect that you might have to wait for a crew, including topropers who can barely hang their way up it, to finish.

GO


cchas


May 20, 2009, 1:33 PM
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Re: [cracklover] 5.12? [In reply to]
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Not going to be deragoatory since its been duly noted that there are geographic differences, whereas on 5.10's in the Gunks (where I used to climb) there aren't lines and no worry of cluster$#%&s whereas in Yosemite, Paradise Forks (Az), Indian Creek and areas like that 5.10 is the "easy" climbs so you can still expect cluster$^&%'s.

Is 5.12 important (as the original poster asked)? Only if you think it is. For me, (predominately a trad climber- about 90% of my climbing), the routes in general become more beautiful as they get harder. The purest routes just tend to have the more difficult grades.


degaine


May 21, 2009, 12:01 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
maybe degain's crags are just generally less crowded. i accept that that would make a huge difference. but no, i don't believe that everybody climbing 5.10 at his crags (especially sport!) are experienced and cluster-free.

I never claimed that these crags are cluster-free, but I did not realize that you were talking in 100% absolutes, that it has to be everybody or nobody.

Sure, Iíve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just arenít the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.


clausti


May 21, 2009, 7:09 AM
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Re: [degaine] 5.12? [In reply to]
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degaine wrote:
Sure, Iíve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just arenít the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.

you win the award for missing the point.


degaine


May 21, 2009, 7:18 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
degaine wrote:
Sure, Iíve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just arenít the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.

you win the award for missing the point.

I don't see how, but I'm all ears if you're willing to explain.


BenKenobi


May 21, 2009, 7:37 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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I climb at RRG and even on routes 5.10 and under, I've found that pretty much all groups are willing to accommodate others.

If I'm TRing someone on a route and another group walks up, I'll always offer to let them TR it on my rope, let them lead it on my gear, or just get the hell out of their way. If someone else is TRing a route, they almost always offer to let me and my group do the same (TR, lead on their gear, or clean it for us.) It's usually one of the first two that ends up happening.

That has just been my personal experience, and I'm sure there are situations where large groups have hogged routes and been unwilling to accommodate others. I just haven't seen that to be the norm at RRG. One of the best parts about the place is how friendly (almost) everyone is.

Ben


clausti


May 21, 2009, 8:13 AM
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Re: [degaine] 5.12? [In reply to]
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degaine wrote:
clausti wrote:
degaine wrote:
Sure, Iíve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just arenít the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.

you win the award for missing the point.

I don't see how, but I'm all ears if you're willing to explain.

i've been trying, and you've been deliberately twisting everything i've said.

it's certainly not that there are malicious, marauding groups of people trying to ruin other people's days. mostly it's just that you say people at 5.10 crags are 5.10 climbers, and obtusely refuse to recognize the reality that a lot of people are on 5.10s that are not solid 5.10 leaders.

a lot of people who are on 5.10s are not solid 5.10 climbers. or the group only contains one solid 5.10 climber. the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.

and the warm-up crags, and the crags that have multiple climbs in the range of those people tend to be cluster fucks. like i said, there are plenty of college groups that have one guy or one girl that can clip the chains on some 5.10s, barely. or they try and top rope on the draws side of a half-lead route (stopped people from doing this on at least two occasions) they top rope through the anchors, they hang for half an hour when they are people patently waiting, they eat lunch with the rope hanging. or the group that gets there first puts up all 4 or 5 warmups. or they send somebody up to clean the route that doesn't know how to clean. or to tie their knot. all of these things i have seen.

or, as led to someone decking from the anchors of Ro Shambo last fall, they engage in all kinds if chicanery to let multiple people toprope from one lead of a very steep route, and sometimes the systems they use are not well understood by all parties. Ro itself is a .12, but it's at the 5.10iest crag there is, roadside. guess by the name how far the approach is.


and yes, benkenobi, a lot of people are really nice. and the longer they've been climbing, they more they "get it" with route sharing, and the nicer they tend to be. and the vast majority of the time, there are no clusterfucks anywhere, because too many clusterfucks means somebody gets hurt. but where there are, they tend tend to be with groups of 5.10 climbers. i've certainly never had anyone tell me there is 1 more person only to sling 5 more people onto the flail-TR on a 5.12.


BenKenobi


May 21, 2009, 8:24 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.


and yes, benkenobi, a lot of people are really nice. and the longer they've been climbing, they more they "get it" with route sharing, and the nicer they tend to be. and the vast majority of the time, there are no clusterfucks anywhere, because too many clusterfucks means somebody gets hurt. but where there are, they tend tend to be with groups of 5.10 climbers. i've certainly never had anyone tell me there is 1 more person only to sling 5 more people onto the flail-TR on a 5.12.

Ahh, I do agree, and I think the section I bolded hits the nail on the head. I suppose when you're dealing with that type of group, all bets are off. With that said, I'll be heading down this weekend to become part of the horde.....


degaine


May 21, 2009, 8:58 AM
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Re: [degaine] 5.12? [In reply to]
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Clausti,

Thanks for taking the time to write a response.

clausti wrote:
i've been trying, and you've been deliberately twisting everything i've said.

My apologies, certainly not deliberate. I made my first comments in response to what someone else had initially written.

clausti wrote:
it's certainly not that there are malicious, marauding groups of people trying to ruin other people's days. mostly it's just that you say people at 5.10 crags are 5.10 climbers, and obtusely refuse to recognize the reality that a lot of people are on 5.10s that are not solid 5.10 leaders.

I actually never obtusely refused to recognize that there are people on 5.10s who are not solid 5.10 climbers. In my initial post I responded to this statement :

camhead wrote:
I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that.

I understood 5.10 climbers to be just that, 5.10 climbers, not the category of people who jump on 5.10s but are not solid leading at the grade.

clausti wrote:
a lot of people who are on 5.10s are not solid 5.10 climbers. or the group only contains one solid 5.10 climber. the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.

and the warm-up crags, and the crags that have multiple climbs in the range of those people tend to be cluster fucks. like i said, there are plenty of college groups that have one guy or one girl that can clip the chains on some 5.10s, barely. or they try and top rope on the draws side of a half-lead route (stopped people from doing this on at least two occasions) they top rope through the anchors, they hang for half an hour when they are people patently waiting, they eat lunch with the rope hanging. or the group that gets there first puts up all 4 or 5 warmups. or they send somebody up to clean the route that doesn't know how to clean. or to tie their knot. all of these things i have seen.

I totally get that you have experienced all of that in places like the Red and I'm not saying the contrary. Why canít you just get that where I climb or have climbed (apparently in places that you have not) this is not at all commonplace?


clausti


May 21, 2009, 9:13 AM
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degaine wrote:

I actually never obtusely refused to recognize that there are people on 5.10s who are not solid 5.10 climbers. In my initial post I responded to this statement :

camhead wrote:
I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that.

I understood 5.10 climbers to be just that, 5.10 climbers, not the category of people who jump on 5.10s but are not solid leading at the grade.

just fyi, i climb with camhead a lot. and sleep next to him at night. and no matter what your definition of "5.10" climber [which, in that case, camhead was probably using to mean "people who climb routes that are rated 5.10."] a 5.10 climber is going to want to climb some 5.10s. and the routes that are 5.10 are where the drama is.


In reply to:
Why canít you just get that where I climb or have climbed (apparently in places that you have not) this is not at all commonplace?

fine, you haven't experienced it. that doesn't mean that all the people on the 5.10s at your crag are experienced though. my guess would be is that your crags just aren't crowded enough for you to notice a difference. but we're talking about SPORT climbing, here, which is an important distinction. at a trad crag, the equivalent gumby infested grade would be about 5.8. sure there are a lot of people who've been climbing for a while that are perfectly competent climb 5.10 sport or 5.8 trad, but lots of gumbys are strong enough to get up that shit, too.

but i've climbed at a lot of places. sport and trad in places in every state that could be remotely called the southeast, ny, new hampshire, texas, arizona, nevada, utah, california, wyoming, even idaho. so i will concede that the red is both unusually crowded and unusually gumby-filled. but i won't say that there's not a strong correlation between the grades and gumbyness. stronger people on harder routes are just usually less clusterfucky, the end.


Partner camhead


May 26, 2009, 3:15 PM
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I just thought I would bump this thread after having a great memorial day weekend at the Gunks. Yeah, you heard me, busiest weekend of the year, at the most crowded crag in the East, probably in the nation.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, first, it has nothing to do with 5.12. There were endless lines on nearly every moderate route. However, everything 5.10a and over was open! We did not wait in line for one single route; we got plenty of climbing in and had a great time.

Once again, it's a reason to climb harder: fewer clusterfucks, better climbing experiences.


blueeyedclimber


May 26, 2009, 5:26 PM
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I climb 5.10 at the Gunks. I rarely see anyone on these routes (with a few exceptions), let alone anyone clusterf@%*ing them.

What's my point? I don't know, but this whole thread is idiotic. Where I climb, solid 5.10 climbers are not cfing anything.

Josh


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May 26, 2009, 7:33 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I climb 5.10 at the Gunks. I rarely see anyone on these routes (with a few exceptions), let alone anyone clusterf@%*ing them.

What's my point? I don't know, but this whole thread is idiotic. Where I climb, solid 5.10 climbers are not cfing anything.

Josh

sooo... you're agreeing with me? I think you are.

At the Red, 5.10 climbers are the clusterfucks. At the Gunks, they are not.

Actually, I would be willing to bet that there is a higher proportion of RRG regulars that climb 5.12 sport than Gunks regulars who climb 5.10.

(fires shot across the bow)
Why are you guys so weak out there?


blueeyedclimber


May 27, 2009, 5:29 AM
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camhead wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I climb 5.10 at the Gunks. I rarely see anyone on these routes (with a few exceptions), let alone anyone clusterf@%*ing them.

What's my point? I don't know, but this whole thread is idiotic. Where I climb, solid 5.10 climbers are not cfing anything.

Josh

sooo... you're agreeing with me? I think you are.

maybe. Tongue

In reply to:
At the Red, 5.10 climbers are the clusterfucks. At the Gunks, they are not.

Actually, I would be willing to bet that there is a higher proportion of RRG regulars that climb 5.12 sport than Gunks regulars who climb 5.10.

(fires shot across the bow)
Why are you guys so weak out there?

I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves. Cool

Josh


bill413


May 27, 2009, 6:44 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves. Cool
Laugh


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May 27, 2009, 6:51 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
In reply to:
At the Red, 5.10 climbers are the clusterfucks. At the Gunks, they are not.

Actually, I would be willing to bet that there is a higher proportion of RRG regulars that climb 5.12 sport than Gunks regulars who climb 5.10.

(fires shot across the bow)
Why are you guys so weak out there?

this is kerrect.



I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves. Cool

Josh


snoopy138


May 27, 2009, 7:19 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
angry wrote:
camhead wrote:
the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything. I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that. The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

That's all I'm going to say.

Easy for you to say. You're married.

to someone who gives excellent second, no less.

I don't think camhead has yet clipped the anchors of something i couldn't follow.

foreshadowing?


snoopy138


May 27, 2009, 7:36 AM
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Re: [camhead] 5.12? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
I just thought I would bump this thread after having a great memorial day weekend at the Gunks. Yeah, you heard me, busiest weekend of the year, at the most crowded crag in the East, probably in the nation.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, first, it has nothing to do with 5.12. There were endless lines on nearly every moderate route. However, everything 5.10a and over was open! We did not wait in line for one single route; we got plenty of climbing in and had a great time.

Once again, it's a reason to climb harder: fewer clusterfucks, better climbing experiences.

you guys missed the group of 3 that had one guy lead Transcon, then 5 TR runs between them on that, then a few more TR burns on whatever the harder route is that shares the anchors.


clausti


May 27, 2009, 7:51 AM
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Re: [snoopy138] 5.12? [In reply to]
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snoopy138 wrote:
clausti wrote:
angry wrote:
camhead wrote:
the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything. I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that. The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

That's all I'm going to say.

Easy for you to say. You're married.

to someone who gives excellent second, no less.

I don't think camhead has yet clipped the anchors of something i couldn't follow.

foreshadowing?

shaddup.


Partner camhead


May 27, 2009, 8:12 AM
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Re: [clausti] 5.12? [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:
clausti wrote:
angry wrote:
camhead wrote:
the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything. I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that. The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

That's all I'm going to say.

Easy for you to say. You're married.

to someone who gives excellent second, no less.

I don't think camhead has yet clipped the anchors of something i couldn't follow.

foreshadowing?

shaddup.

zing!

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