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sungam


May 21, 2009, 5:50 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Analogy... [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
sungam wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
If I had my choice, I'd have no job, and could climb (and ski, other hobby) wherever and whenever I wanted.
So what the fuck are you waiting for?

Someone to give me the money to pay off my student loans. Oh, but then I'd still need money to travel, buy food, lift tickets, equipment, clothing, etc. I could get hurt pretty easily skiing or climbing, so I'll need some health insurance too. Eventually all of this stuff will probably have me pretty worn down, and I'll need some sort of "retirement fund" to live off of. I guess what I really need is some sort of trust fund. Are you volunteering?
Volunteering for what? To listen to you moan? You think people like Cory Naumen have a trust fund? Nopo, sir, they work for shit pay and stretch it out. It's easy to pay well under 20 bucks a week when free camping. Health insurance is, of course, a problem, but many of the people I've met around the states are making do without, and many of them are still pushing it on hard routes, high peaks, and steep slopes. Student loans suck for sure, but they can be cut back on via cutting out unnecassry payments like car/house/whatever items that you *need* for modern day life.
Srsly, dude, unless you have a career job (and even then it's worth pondering on) quit that shit and go dirtbag for a couple years.


DexterRutecki


May 21, 2009, 6:00 PM
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You don't have to jump down my throat man, just telling it like it is, not moaning - I got myself into this life.

And yeah, I do have a "professional" career job. Believe me I've considered dirtbagging it. But it's not time for me to make that decision yet. In a year or two I'll be in the financial situation to consider it.

It's crazy the decisions many Americans make when they're the wise old age of 18 (</sarcasm>). I made the call to go to a private college and get a $100,000 education (that's the price tag, jury's out on it being worth it.) It's landed me a good job doing what I want to do, but you are for sure roped into the "rat race" when you make that call. Due to the debt, you're sort of trapped in the game for a while because of it.

Anyway, cheers to the people that went the other way. Maybe I'll be there someday, maybe not.


sungam


May 21, 2009, 6:19 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
And yeah, I do have a "professional" career job.
Hehehe, yeah sorry for jumping on you. Seemed like a fun idea at the time (it was).
Hard to choose when you invested money (aka time) and time (aka money) into getting into your position. Does the experience carry or would you be back to ~square one if you quit?


DexterRutecki


May 21, 2009, 6:49 PM
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I'm sure I could make it back into the industry, especially if I spent some time keeping up to date. Depends how long of a dirtbagging timespan we're talkin though.

I really want to be out of debt and have some safety net money in the bank or invested before I go and make any sort of decision like that.

It's a shame that the sabbatical concept isn't more embraced in the states. Even being able to take 2 months off out of the year without pay would be a huge improvement.


sungam


May 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
I'm sure I could make it back into the industry, especially if I spent some time keeping up to date. Depends how long of a dirtbagging timespan we're talkin though.

I really want to be out of debt and have some safety net money in the bank or invested before I go and make any sort of decision like that.

It's a shame that the sabbatical concept isn't more embraced in the states. Even being able to take 2 months off out of the year without pay would be a huge improvement.
Introduce the idea to your boss, saying it will improve motivation and self confidence.


fresh


May 22, 2009, 6:25 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Analogy... [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
Now, then, would a 5.14 trad climber have an easier time with 5.14 sport, or would a 5.14 sport climber have an easier time on 5.14 trad?
nico favresse had some trouble on an E8 (maybe E9?) in "on sight."

but I've heard sonnie say that a 5.14 sport climber could send the cobra crack after two weeks in the Creek.

but then, dave macleod has made short work of at least one 9a.

f*@# man. I dunno.

I will say that shortly after onsighting a 10d sport route for the first time, I was shitting myself leading a runout 5.5 slab (standard route on whitehorse). that's what the gym will do to you.


BenKenobi


May 22, 2009, 6:29 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
But (gym climbing) is not rock climbing. It's training.

(***)

Nothing wrong with doing Tae-bo. Just don't think it's going to improve your defensive skills.

Isn't this where your analogy fails? It's internally inconsistent. Gym climbing is training for real climbing, but Tae Bo is not training for self defense. So gym climbing and Tae Bo are not analogous.


dingus


May 22, 2009, 7:10 AM
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BenKenobi wrote:
Isn't this where your analogy fails?

Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!

The analogy failed betwixt your ears mate,

Sheesh.

DMT


BenKenobi


May 22, 2009, 7:24 AM
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dingus wrote:
BenKenobi wrote:
Isn't this where your analogy fails?

Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!

The analogy failed betwixt your ears mate,

Sheesh.

DMT

Brilliant! I certainly can't argue with your logic.

I don't know why I post on here.


altelis


May 22, 2009, 7:25 AM
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Re: [BenKenobi] Analogy... [In reply to]
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BenKenobi wrote:
dingus wrote:
BenKenobi wrote:
Isn't this where your analogy fails?

Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!

The analogy failed betwixt your ears mate,

Sheesh.

DMT

Brilliant! I certainly can't argue with your logic.

I don't know why I post on here.

Me neither!Tongue












just kidding mate. kinda. just having fun. kinda.


sidepull


May 22, 2009, 7:46 AM
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Re: [reno] Analogy... [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?

Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.

Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.

Two. Different. Animals.

Funny then that so many top climbers from previous generations made bachar ladders, campus boards, and woodies (e.g. "gyms") to help them send their projects. I get that people don't like the modern gym scene, but demoting the benefits of the training is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are a lot of people applying strength and technique learned in the gym and on sport routes to trad goals with great success.

In sum, I fully appreciate the ethos of trad climbing and the oft-times elitist stance of trad as a purer form of climbing. But just as often, this philosophy is simply a smoke screen for weakness. For example, you (generic you, not anyone on this site or anyone specific) are very comfortable climbing a 5.9 trad crack but you can't climb the crux of a 5.10 sport/gym route. Rather than training and improving, you slag on sport/gym climbing as a whole as a bastardized form of climbing. I have no problem with the real "elite" claiming that trad is pure, it's the faux elite that are just propping up their egos that get annoying.


shockabuku


May 22, 2009, 7:59 AM
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Climbing is climbing, if you don't like it, don't do it. Climb a tree, climb a rock, climb plastic holds inside on man made walls; they'll all teach you something if you're paying attention.


sungam


May 22, 2009, 8:09 AM
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fresh wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Now, then, would a 5.14 trad climber have an easier time with 5.14 sport, or would a 5.14 sport climber have an easier time on 5.14 trad?
nico favresse had some trouble on an E8 (maybe E9?) in "on sight."
erm... E8 is the hardest route to be onsighted...

As for Dave... He's just t3h fukin' awesome, isn't he?


reno


May 22, 2009, 8:39 AM
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sidepull wrote:
reno wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?

Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.

Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.

Two. Different. Animals.

Funny then that so many top climbers from previous generations made bachar ladders, campus boards, and woodies (e.g. "gyms") to help them send their projects.

Certainly nobody has denied the value and worth in training in the gym. In fact, I think OAHM said as much four, perhaps five times.

But if you think that driving to the gym, pulling your harness from the trunk, walking 50 feet to the door, climbing in an air-conditioned building with a water fountain on the wall and 9-1-1 just a phone call away is the same as a 9 mile ski approach at 3:00 am carrying a 30 pound pack to a 700 foot snow and ice climb that starts at 11,000 feet, then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


hafilax


May 22, 2009, 8:47 AM
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sidepull wrote:
reno wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?

Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.

Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.

Two. Different. Animals.

Funny then that so many top climbers from previous generations made bachar ladders, campus boards, and woodies (e.g. "gyms") to help them send their projects. I get that people don't like the modern gym scene, but demoting the benefits of the training is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are a lot of people applying strength and technique learned in the gym and on sport routes to trad goals with great success.

In sum, I fully appreciate the ethos of trad climbing and the oft-times elitist stance of trad as a purer form of climbing. But just as often, this philosophy is simply a smoke screen for weakness. For example, you (generic you, not anyone on this site or anyone specific) are very comfortable climbing a 5.9 trad crack but you can't climb the crux of a 5.10 sport/gym route. Rather than training and improving, you slag on sport/gym climbing as a whole as a bastardized form of climbing. I have no problem with the real "elite" claiming that trad is pure, it's the faux elite that are just propping up their egos that get annoying.
Forget grades for a second. My local gym in Vancouver is smelly, covered in chalk dust, packed with socializing yuppies and university students, hot and humid etc. I wonder why someone that could climb outside whenever they want would avoid the gym?!

You can get just as strong climbing outside and it is more sport specific to the type of rock you climb because it IS the rock you climb. There is no climbing gym in Squamish and the locals are a hell of a lot stronger than I am without ever touching plastic.

This 'you can't get strong if you don't climb in a gym' argument is weak.


fresh


May 22, 2009, 9:19 AM
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sungam wrote:
fresh wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Now, then, would a 5.14 trad climber have an easier time with 5.14 sport, or would a 5.14 sport climber have an easier time on 5.14 trad?
nico favresse had some trouble on an E8 (maybe E9?) in "on sight."
erm... E8 is the hardest route to be onsighted...

As for Dave... He's just t3h fukin' awesome, isn't he?
yeah but I thought nico never sent? maybe I should watch it again.

and yes, dave macleod is the ill shit.


DexterRutecki


May 22, 2009, 10:26 AM
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reno wrote:
But if you think that driving to the gym, pulling your harness from the trunk, walking 50 feet to the door, climbing in an air-conditioned building with a water fountain on the wall and 9-1-1 just a phone call away is the same as a 9 mile ski approach at 3:00 am carrying a 30 pound pack to a 700 foot snow and ice climb that starts at 11,000 feet, then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

Who IS claiming that though?


sidepull


May 22, 2009, 10:26 AM
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hafilax wrote:
sidepull wrote:
reno wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?

Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.

Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.

Two. Different. Animals.

Funny then that so many top climbers from previous generations made bachar ladders, campus boards, and woodies (e.g. "gyms") to help them send their projects. I get that people don't like the modern gym scene, but demoting the benefits of the training is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are a lot of people applying strength and technique learned in the gym and on sport routes to trad goals with great success.

In sum, I fully appreciate the ethos of trad climbing and the oft-times elitist stance of trad as a purer form of climbing. But just as often, this philosophy is simply a smoke screen for weakness. For example, you (generic you, not anyone on this site or anyone specific) are very comfortable climbing a 5.9 trad crack but you can't climb the crux of a 5.10 sport/gym route. Rather than training and improving, you slag on sport/gym climbing as a whole as a bastardized form of climbing. I have no problem with the real "elite" claiming that trad is pure, it's the faux elite that are just propping up their egos that get annoying.
Forget grades for a second. My local gym in Vancouver is smelly, covered in chalk dust, packed with socializing yuppies and university students, hot and humid etc. I wonder why someone that could climb outside whenever they want would avoid the gym?!

You can get just as strong climbing outside and it is more sport specific to the type of rock you climb because it IS the rock you climb. There is no climbing gym in Squamish and the locals are a hell of a lot stronger than I am without ever touching plastic.

This 'you can't get strong if you don't climb in a gym' argument is weak.

Please re-read my post(s). I never said that. Moreover, the exception that you cite does not prove the rule. There is a massive influx of climbers applying strength and technique from the gym environment to the natural environment. I never said that "has" to be the way it happens.


i_h8_choss


May 22, 2009, 10:31 AM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
I don't think I ever changed my opinion onceahardman. If anything, I think your continuing to refer to gym climbing as "tae bo" as if to refer to it as some girly pursuit for sissies just shows what I'm talking about. Why the constant need for these comparisons, especially trad to sport?

What's the obsession with this this situation where you're outdoors climbing being a manly man placing nuts, and cocky Joe Gym Rat shows up, gets on his PA speaker, and announces, "Sup bros, 5.13 gym climber here, if you want to see some gnarly climbing, just watch me". Then he gets shut down on a 5.9, and you come over and laugh at him or something?

I don't f***ing get it. Of course there are people that overestimate their abilities. Who cares. I guess the fact that a few of those people exist means that anyone who climbs in a gym shares the same mindset? Get over yourself.






When cocky Joe Gym Rat shows up at the crag for a little rock climbing, Id be happy and support him....even give him a litttle beta if he asked. But when he did get shut down, he'd be heading back to the gym to train.

Im curious what you tell your lady or your friends when you go the gym. Do you say?
1-"Honey Im going rock climbing."
2-"Im heading to the gym for a while"
3-"Im going to climb at the gym"

Now #3 is the best, but you are not going "rock climbing" Its two different things. rock climbing is to rc.com and gym climbing is to (or should be) gc.com.


sidepull


May 22, 2009, 10:34 AM
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reno wrote:
sidepull wrote:
reno wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?

Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.

Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.

Two. Different. Animals.

Funny then that so many top climbers from previous generations made bachar ladders, campus boards, and woodies (e.g. "gyms") to help them send their projects.

Certainly nobody has denied the value and worth in training in the gym. In fact, I think OAHM said as much four, perhaps five times.

But if you think that driving to the gym, pulling your harness from the trunk, walking 50 feet to the door, climbing in an air-conditioned building with a water fountain on the wall and 9-1-1 just a phone call away is the same as a 9 mile ski approach at 3:00 am carrying a 30 pound pack to a 700 foot snow and ice climb that starts at 11,000 feet, then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

Reno, I never implied the conclusion that you're reaching, in fact, if anything, my FULL post showed an enormous amount of respect for the person willing to take the 9 mile ski approach. There's nothing to capture the imagination in an epic gym approach. I'd rather be inspired than just train, but sometimes you need to train to be inspired. The gym implements I listed above were invented by hardman that realized that, to achieve the objective they had set for themselves using pure styles, they would need to use "gyms" (the quotes indicate I'm using this term very broadly) to get to a point where they could physically reach their goals.

Finally, I don't think there's anything that I've posted that implies a disagreement with OAHM, at most I am only suggesting a more refined way to appreciate the analogy.


onceahardman


May 22, 2009, 10:36 AM
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BenKenobi wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
But (gym climbing) is not rock climbing. It's training.

(***)

Nothing wrong with doing Tae-bo. Just don't think it's going to improve your defensive skills.

Isn't this where your analogy fails? It's internally inconsistent. Gym climbing is training for real climbing, but Tae Bo is not training for self defense. So gym climbing and Tae Bo are not analogous.

Not so fast, Obi-Wan...

Billy Blanks was a five time Karate champion, and a seventh degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

By the common logic of RCdotcom, Billy's numbers are higher, so of course, his methods are correct.

http://www.billyblanks.com/...billy/about+billy.do

WinkWinkWinkWinkWink


bill413


May 22, 2009, 11:02 AM
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i_h8_choss wrote:
Im curious what you tell your lady or your friends when you go the gym. Do you say?
1-"Honey Im going rock climbing."
2-"Im heading to the gym for a while"
3-"Im going to climb at the gym"

Now #3 is the best, but you are not going "rock climbing" Its two different things. rock climbing is to rc.com and gym climbing is to (or should be) gc.com.
4-"I'm going climbing."


hafilax


May 22, 2009, 11:52 AM
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I admit I read more into your statement than you intended. It seems that you are mostly ranting about mediocre climbers that are bitter about gym climbers climbing harder. I've never met anyone like that and it seems to be more of an RC.com myth than anything. At the very least those people aren't common enough to worry about.

There have been a lot of advancements in training for climbing science but most people agree that plastic is a poor replacement for rock if it's not the same style of climbing. Someone that climbs rock exclusively will advance faster at that style than someone that climbs exclusively on plastic. The gym climber might be better at climbing in the gym but if climbing outside is the end goal then it is better to climb on rock as much as possible.


onceahardman


May 22, 2009, 12:40 PM
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In reply to:
Finally, I don't think there's anything that I've posted that implies a disagreement with OAHM, at most I am only suggesting a more refined way to appreciate the analogy.

For the record, I don't see this as disagreement either, just interesting discussion. I never expected it to reach three pages.

EDIT: But right to the point, you said:

In reply to:
I get that people don't like the modern gym scene, but demoting the benefits of the training is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't recall anybody ever "demoting the benefits of training", but I'll be quick to apologize if wrong.

"training" and "climbing" are different, but the best training will be a lot like climbing. Agreed?


(This post was edited by onceahardman on May 22, 2009, 12:55 PM)


sidepull


May 27, 2009, 9:13 PM
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agreed.

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