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altelis
May 26, 2009, 5:08 AM
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jt512 wrote: altelis wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: I bought a Cinch after using a GriGri to lead belay and hating it. The cinch feeds suuuper easy, and I use it for lead belaying both sport and trad. I dunno why people wouldn't use it to lead belay for trad... it's not that heavy. To exemplify how easily it feeds, there have been numerous times where the leader will pull rope through the cinch because I'm not paying attention and they go to clip something. The rope just pulls through, and they don't even realize that anything is different. its scary how little confidence your post instills....  And for so many reasons! Jay
thats why i kept it so general- thought i'd save myself some typing! 
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sspssp
May 26, 2009, 3:01 PM
Post #27 of 49
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bill413 wrote: altelis wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: To exemplify how easily it feeds, there have been numerous times where the leader will pull rope through the cinch because I'm not paying attention and they go to clip something. The rope just pulls through, and they don't even realize that anything is different. its scary how little confidence your post instills.... Yes, this is what I want in a belay device (and a belayer).
You guys have never "shorted" your leader?
I've also noticed that if you have the device held open, the leader can pull the rope through (and avoid being shorted). Doesn't mean that the device won't lock off in a fall (I think that the cinch engages easier and locks off better than the grigri).
As for the OP, for ropes in the 10.2 and smaller I think the cinch is way better. For anything fatter, I would rather use a grigri.
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bill413
May 26, 2009, 3:15 PM
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sspssp wrote: bill413 wrote: altelis wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: To exemplify how easily it feeds, there have been numerous times where the leader will pull rope through the cinch because I'm not paying attention and they go to clip something. The rope just pulls through, and they don't even realize that anything is different. its scary how little confidence your post instills.... Yes, this is what I want in a belay device (and a belayer). I've also noticed that if you have the device held open, the leader can pull the rope through (and avoid being shorted). Doesn't mean that the device won't lock off in a fall (I think that the cinch engages easier and locks off better than the grigri). As for the OP, for ropes in the 10.2 and smaller I think the cinch is way better. For anything fatter, I would rather use a grigri. 
The part we are concerned about was bolded above: belayer not paying attention often enough that this becomes an issue. And, the rope just pulling through doesn't sound good, I mean you think the cinch locks easier than a grigri, but the grigri can fail to engage with thin ropes & no tension on the brake side.
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BenKenobi
May 26, 2009, 7:17 PM
Post #29 of 49
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I use a cinch and love it. I've never had a problem with the 11mm I use for top rope. I have had some big fat gym ropes be a pain with it, but not unusable.
I have a 10.2mm dry treated rope that can be tricky to lower with when using the cinch. I tried redirecting the brake end through a carabiner attached to my harness leg loop (as suggested by a trango video) and it makes lowering much easier.
So with those two caveats in mind, the cinch is great.
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billcoe_
May 26, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #30 of 49
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I own the Cinch, the Eddy and the Sum. Used plenty of Gri Gris.
Here is the entomology of the word Gri Gri. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...the_grigri_P1191989/
I like the Cinch when I want to go light and the Eddy for everything else. Gri Gris work fine though.
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jt512
May 26, 2009, 8:23 PM
Post #31 of 49
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Etymology.
Jay
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altelis
May 26, 2009, 8:29 PM
Post #32 of 49
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bill413 wrote: sspssp wrote: bill413 wrote: altelis wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: To exemplify how easily it feeds, there have been numerous times where the leader will pull rope through the cinch because I'm not paying attention and they go to clip something. The rope just pulls through, and they don't even realize that anything is different. its scary how little confidence your post instills.... Yes, this is what I want in a belay device (and a belayer). I've also noticed that if you have the device held open, the leader can pull the rope through (and avoid being shorted). Doesn't mean that the device won't lock off in a fall (I think that the cinch engages easier and locks off better than the grigri). As for the OP, for ropes in the 10.2 and smaller I think the cinch is way better. For anything fatter, I would rather use a grigri. Of course I've never shorted my leader! Nor wedgied anybody in years! The part we are concerned about was bolded above: belayer not paying attention often enough that this becomes an issue. And, the rope just pulling through doesn't sound good, I mean you think the cinch locks easier than a grigri, but the grigri can fail to engage with thin ropes & no tension on the brake side.
yea, i was more concerned about the not paying attention part. the times i'm most likely to short the leader:
1) im in the crowded gym and somebody is gabbing in my ear about what route we are doing, where it goes, how long, etc. --- wait your turn
2) i can't see my leader and they go for an unexpected and long clip (can/has been sport or trad)
yea, i've shorted by leader. bound to happen to the best of belayers. just don't really like the sound of logic that goes "i like this device b/c when i don't pay attention it saves me".
as for the gri-gri and locking up. on a top belay directly off an anchor, on a 10.2 rope, with my buddy hanging there trying to figure out a move and resting, had it un-lock. he shifted in the harness just right, and while i had my hand on the brake strand there was some slack in b/w my hand and the grigri as i was trying to grab a drink at the same time. gri gri locked up no problem after he dropped about 1 ft, and never really jerked or pulled on my hand at all. he was FREAKED out (understandably) but after he accused me of letting him drop like 10 feet i told him to take another look. he sheepishly said it was more like 1, but that he was a little unnerved at randomly and unexpectedly dropping like that...
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bill413
May 27, 2009, 12:14 AM
Post #33 of 49
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altelis wrote: as for the gri-gri and locking up. on a top belay directly off an anchor, on a 10.2 rope, with my buddy hanging there trying to figure out a move and resting, had it un-lock. he shifted in the harness just right, and while i had my hand on the brake strand there was some slack in b/w my hand and the grigri as i was trying to grab a drink at the same time. gri gri locked up no problem after he dropped about 1 ft, and never really jerked or pulled on my hand at all. he was FREAKED out (understandably) but after he accused me of letting him drop like 10 feet i told him to take another look. he sheepishly said it was more like 1, but that he was a little unnerved at randomly and unexpectedly dropping like that...
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jt512
May 27, 2009, 12:20 AM
Post #34 of 49
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altelis wrote: as for the gri-gri and locking up. on a top belay directly off an anchor, on a 10.2 rope, with my buddy hanging there trying to figure out a move and resting, had it un-lock.
Was that 10.2 a Beal Edlinger, by any chance?
Jay
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altelis
May 27, 2009, 12:21 AM
Post #35 of 49
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bill413 wrote: altelis wrote: as for the gri-gri and locking up. on a top belay directly off an anchor, on a 10.2 rope, with my buddy hanging there trying to figure out a move and resting, had it un-lock. he shifted in the harness just right, and while i had my hand on the brake strand there was some slack in b/w my hand and the grigri as i was trying to grab a drink at the same time. gri gri locked up no problem after he dropped about 1 ft, and never really jerked or pulled on my hand at all. he was FREAKED out (understandably) but after he accused me of letting him drop like 10 feet i told him to take another look. he sheepishly said it was more like 1, but that he was a little unnerved at randomly and unexpectedly dropping like that... That's scary. Intellectually I knew that I needed to keep my hand on the brake strand when it was locked...but never witnessed it slipping like that when stopped.
yea, it was definitely an eye opener. i think one of the things that really contributed to it happening was that it was a slightly overhanging climb (off the sea stack at otter cliffs), and when he rested he was fully on the rope. i think his harness didn't quite fit right and was a little uncomfortable, and in an attempt to make it more comfy shifted his weight quickly enough and in such a manner as to completely unweight the rope. when he weighted it again, miliseconds later, it just didn't bind up right away. but like i said, i never felt a tug on the rope on the brake strand. not to say it would have locked up without me there- its quite possible my hand just move to put the rope in a position such that it created enough friction to lock up again.
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altelis
May 27, 2009, 12:23 AM
Post #36 of 49
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jt512 wrote: altelis wrote: as for the gri-gri and locking up. on a top belay directly off an anchor, on a 10.2 rope, with my buddy hanging there trying to figure out a move and resting, had it un-lock. Was that 10.2 a Beal Edlinger, by any chance? Jay
Jay, I honestly don't remember. I have never owned a Beal rope, but I know that my partner did, and we could have certainly been using his that day. I just don't remember well enough (it was going on 7 years ago).
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ShibbyShane
May 27, 2009, 2:52 AM
Post #37 of 49
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Wow. Every post I see by you on here you're either talking shit on someone or being condescending. Glad you're being helpful.
As for my slip about "not paying attention," I didn't mean in the sense that I'm smoking a bowl with both hands off the rope, type of not paying attention. More along the lines that someone else pointed along, where I unintentionally would have short-roped the leader because I wasn't looking at him at that exact moment, or he's around a corner out of sight or something.
It'd be nice if people here didn't jump down everyone's throats so easily.
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jt512
May 27, 2009, 3:24 AM
Post #38 of 49
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ShibbyShane wrote: Wow. Every post I see by you on here you're either talking shit on someone or being condescending. Glad you're being helpful. As for my slip about "not paying attention," I didn't mean in the sense that I'm smoking a bowl with both hands off the rope, type of not paying attention. More along the lines that someone else pointed along, where I unintentionally would have short-roped the leader because I wasn't looking at him at that exact moment, or he's around a corner out of sight or something. It'd be nice if people here didn't jump down everyone's throats so easily.
It would be nice if there weren't so many illiterates and morons here, too. We can all dream.
Jay
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ShibbyShane
May 27, 2009, 3:26 AM
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Touche. But, if you don't like it, leave.
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jt512
May 27, 2009, 3:27 AM
Post #40 of 49
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ShibbyShane wrote: Touche. But, if you don't like it, leave.
If you don't like it, leave. You're the one whining.
Jay
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no_email_entered
May 27, 2009, 3:36 AM
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jt512 wrote: Etymology. Jay
no, he was referring to the grigri beetle of South America---
---love the cinch, though use it primarily to bring up seconds. never had a problem with an 11mm rope with it either. the lowering can be delicate until you get it, but the redirect helps if you're jerkin' it. the gri gri is a better doorstop imo. i don't know why you'd give up the cinch for a gg, tho.
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ShibbyShane
May 27, 2009, 3:54 AM
Post #42 of 49
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Once again another mature comment.
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jt512
May 27, 2009, 4:00 AM
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ShibbyShane wrote: Once again another mature comment.
If I had written "entomology," meaning the study of bugs, when I meant "etymology," the study of word origin, I would be grateful to someone who corrected me, because I take pride in my command of the language, and I would be grateful to anyone who could help me improve it. So, let's not jump to conclusions about who is mature and who is not.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 27, 2009, 4:08 AM)
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jt512
May 27, 2009, 4:40 AM
Post #44 of 49
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jt512 wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: Once again another mature comment. If I had written "entomology," meaning the study of bugs, when I meant "etymology," the study of word origin, I would be grateful to someone who corrected me, because I take pride in my command of the language, and I would be grateful to anyone who could help me improve it. So, let's not jump to conclusions about who is mature and who is not. Jay
As an example of a mature response to a correction, visit the link to the following, which was just now posted: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2146990#2146990. Codefrog, who misspelled "Petzl" in a previous post, is corrected by another user, and codefrog's response is to say thanks for the correction.
Jay
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asellers98
May 27, 2009, 5:48 AM
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<I absolutely love the Cinch>
I am curious if anyone else has experienced this when belaying a leader with a Cinch.
If you don't have a small bend in the rope, allowing the rope to the climber be slacked enough to keep the cinch from engaging, it has the likely possibility of CINCHING down so tight you have to use the lever to get it undone. Thus short roping the climber like you would not believe. And when that happens the climber usually pulls the rope harder thus making the situation worse.
It maybe my technique, but I don't want to keep my Cinch in a completely open state while belaying a leader. I would rather have a small bend increasing the distance by 6-12", verses keeping the device in a wide open state until a fall or lowering. And I have tried to leave it wide open, if a leader tugs the rope just right, it will lock up anyway, thus short roping.
My other two criticisms about the Cinch:
1. I would not hand it over to someone that has never used it. This device requires practice with someone on the ground teaching.
2. The lowering speed is really two small of a range for climbs that are not completely vertical. When the climber is leaning in a way that their full weight is not on the rope, there are surprises over ledges, and other scary locations. In these situations I suggest always using a redirect for the lowering. Because you usually have to open it up too wide for the climber to start lowering, then they are in a fast decent. A redirect really aids in slowing this process down.
Another useful trick on using the cinch smoother while working the break hand on top rope.
The technique that works best for me is when your break arm is fully extended, grab above it with your opposite hand (by going under the cinch), then position your break hand in above that to be ready for the next series. Hand switching keeps the tension tightest on the Cinch, and avoids that annoying bouncing of the Cinch device. (bouncing refers to the device's tendency to drop by its weight causing the device to get out of proper alignment and thus introducing a small amount of additional rope distance before locking, thus making lock off less efficient.) - hope that made sense.
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catbird_seat
May 27, 2009, 5:58 AM
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Shibby, stick around long enough and you'll learn like the rest of us to avoid pissing matches with JT512. He can and will outlast you.
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theguy
May 27, 2009, 7:59 AM
Post #47 of 49
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ShibbyShane wrote: if you don't like it, leave.
He doesn't have to: he has killfile. You can too
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sspssp
May 27, 2009, 9:08 PM
Post #48 of 49
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bill413 wrote: sspssp wrote: bill413 wrote: altelis wrote: ShibbyShane wrote: To exemplify how easily it feeds, there have been numerous times where the leader will pull rope through the cinch because I'm not paying attention and they go to clip something. The rope just pulls through, and they don't even realize that anything is different. its scary how little confidence your post instills.... Yes, this is what I want in a belay device (and a belayer). I've also noticed that if you have the device held open, the leader can pull the rope through (and avoid being shorted). Doesn't mean that the device won't lock off in a fall (I think that the cinch engages easier and locks off better than the grigri). As for the OP, for ropes in the 10.2 and smaller I think the cinch is way better. For anything fatter, I would rather use a grigri. Of course I've never shorted my leader! Nor wedgied anybody in years! The part we are concerned about was bolded above: belayer not paying attention often enough that this becomes an issue. And, the rope just pulling through doesn't sound good, I mean you think the cinch locks easier than a grigri, but the grigri can fail to engage with thin ropes & no tension on the brake side.
I hear ya'. And not to get in too much of a pissing match, but...
Not paying enough attention to prevent shorting is annoying, but it doesn't have to be a safety issue.
When the device is held open, the rope feeds through extremely easily. This is what makes it great for lead belaying. I think it would be a bit tricky to actually hold the device open (and drop the leader) when the leader falls because the device is "scissored" open with your fingers and thumb and I can't imagine keeping it this way with the rope whizzing through. (It's not like the grigri where you really have to keep the device squeezed hard to pull a fuzzy rope through). So, once upon a time, I claimed it was harder to drop a leader with the cinch than the grigri. Although there have been at least a couple of reports on rc.com of people being dropped. So no device is fail proof.
(This post was edited by sspssp on May 27, 2009, 9:19 PM)
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sspssp
May 27, 2009, 9:17 PM
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asellers98 wrote: If you don't have a small bend in the rope, allowing the rope to the climber be slacked enough to keep the cinch from engaging, it has the likely possibility of CINCHING down so tight you have to use the lever to get it undone.... It maybe my technique, but I don't want to keep my Cinch in a completely open state while belaying a leader.... My other two criticisms about the Cinch: 1. I would not hand it over to someone that has never used it. This device requires practice with someone on the ground teaching. 2. The lowering speed is really two small of a range for climbs that are not completely vertical....
I worried at first about having the rope lock off when the leader was trying to clip. But I've never had that problem. I do hold the device open at all times. With my right/brake hand I keep the rope between/inside of my thumb and index finger. Using my other fingers and the base of thumb, I keep the device open. When catching a fall, the device slips out of my hand leaving my hand on the rope.
However, any time I am sport belaying and not actively feeding rope, I'll put my left hand on the rope below my brake hand as a backup. I especially do this at my local gym since they are pretty picky (nothing wrong with that). Nevertheless, I am confident of my ability to catch a surprise fall even with the device "open" and even without the left hand backup (which is why I like the cinch for multi-pitch). But if you are not, just use the left hand backup.
1. No device is "beginner proof."
2. Lowering isn't great. But unless the rope is fat (in which case you can't lower at all) I can lower a climber with the cinch every bit as smoothly as I can with a grigri (admittedly after a lot of practice).
(This post was edited by sspssp on May 27, 2009, 9:35 PM)
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