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brunoschull


May 31, 2009, 2:14 PM
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Anchor set up using climbing rope
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I recently climbed with a partner who has lots of experience spanning many decades, mountain ranges, and continents.

He built fast and simple anchors using the climbing rope. For example, he placed two good pieces of protection and clove hitched the rope to each piece.

Of course, this kind of anchor is not secure, equalized, redundant, and so on, but it seems like it would be useful when low on gear, short on time, in an alpine setting, and so on. A good skill to have in the bag of tricks.

I have never seen these kind of anchors treated in detail. Anybody have any advice about building anchors with the climbing rope?

Thanks.


altelis


May 31, 2009, 2:17 PM
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brunoschull wrote:
I recently climbed with a partner who has lots of experience spanning many decades, mountain ranges, and continents.

He built fast and simple anchors using the climbing rope. For example, he placed two good pieces of protection and clove hitched the rope to each piece.

Of course, this kind of anchor is not secure, equalized, redundant, and so on, but it seems like it would be useful when low on gear, short on time, in an alpine setting, and so on. A good skill to have in the bag of tricks.

I have never seen these kind of anchors treated in detail. Anybody have any advice about building anchors with the climbing rope?

Thanks.

Sorry, I didn't really think this point was so obvious. There are many ways of rigging a SRENE anchor with the rope. Or at least as close to rigging a SRENE anchor is possible with other methods.


patto


May 31, 2009, 3:19 PM
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Rope is a fantastic way to rig an anchor. Most of my anchors are rope anchors and they are SRENE. (but not this fancy dynamic equalisation bullshit that violates KISS)


socalclimber


May 31, 2009, 3:38 PM
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patto wrote:
Rope is a fantastic way to rig an anchor. Most of my anchors are rope anchors and they are SRENE. (but not this fancy dynamic equalisation bullshit that violates KISS)

Agreed on all points. Definately get your buddy to teach how to do this, it's a great skill to have under your belt.


gunkiemike


May 31, 2009, 6:41 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
patto wrote:
Rope is a fantastic way to rig an anchor. Most of my anchors are rope anchors and they are SRENE. (but not this fancy dynamic equalisation bullshit that violates KISS)

Agreed on all points. Definately get your buddy to teach how to do this, it's a great skill to have under your belt.

I'd say, if your buddy's anchors are not SRENE, then DON'T get him to show you what he's doing. Learn to build good anchors using the rope, then maybe you can teach him. The two loop and three loop bowlines or Fig. 8s are good places to start.


fishclimb


May 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
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I clove hitch into my quick draws on anchors. Is it unsafe to clove two opposed biners? I wouldn't think so. Any one else?


colatownkid


May 31, 2009, 7:29 PM
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brunoschull wrote:
I recently climbed with a partner who has lots of experience spanning many decades, mountain ranges, and continents.

He built fast and simple anchors using the climbing rope. For example, he placed two good pieces of protection and clove hitched the rope to each piece.

Of course, this kind of anchor is not secure, equalized, redundant, and so on, but it seems like it would be useful when low on gear, short on time, in an alpine setting, and so on. A good skill to have in the bag of tricks.

I have never seen these kind of anchors treated in detail. Anybody have any advice about building anchors with the climbing rope?

Thanks.

recently, this thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; gave a few examples of how to anchor directly with the rope.

off the top of my head, here's a quick list of rope-only or fast-and-light anchors:

1. sliding x/sliding w

2. clove 2 pieces/bolts with slack in the middle, tie a fig-8 to use as masterpoint (there's a diagram of it in the linked thread)

3. clove 2 pieces/bolts leaving some slack, tie a clove in the middle as masterpoint

4. double fig 8 ("bunny ears"), triple fig 8, double bowline, triple bowline, etc.

5. clove self to a bolt/piece, sling self to another bolt/piece, clip a draw to one of the pieces and use the draw as the masterpoint.

edit: reformatted for readability


(This post was edited by colatownkid on May 31, 2009, 7:33 PM)


rtwilli4


May 31, 2009, 7:35 PM
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fishclimb wrote:
I clove hitch into my quick draws on anchors. Is it unsafe to clove two opposed biners? I wouldn't think so. Any one else?
No


chrisJoosse


Jun 18, 2009, 2:07 PM
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brunoschull wrote:
Of course, this kind of anchor is not secure, equalized, redundant, and so on, but it seems like it would be useful when low on gear, short on time, in an alpine setting, and so on. A good skill to have in the bag of tricks.

You're right- this is a good skill to have in the bag of tricks, but there's no good reason to build an anchor that isn't Secure, Redundant, Equalized, Non-Extending whenever possible- the consequences of a systemic serial failure (even if the risk of it happening might be low) are just too high. The "short on time" reason fails most especially- the time you save with the serial 2-clove-hitch arrangement versus rigging a sliding-x on the same pieces is minimal. If your circumstances make it worth building an anchor, it's worth taking the time to build it well.
The upside to using rope is that it's durable and strong and hey, you've got some right there with you!

The downsides of using part of your rope as your anchor rigging are numerous, but if that's what you've got to work with, it's better than nothing. That said, it's probably easier and just as quick to carry an extra locker and cordolette or couple slings than to try to do that a lot with your rope.


granite_grrl


Jun 19, 2009, 5:06 AM
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I'll generally use the rope to build my anchor. This is a solid, versatile method for building anchors.

But only safe and quick if you're swapping leads with your partner on multipitch stuff. If not, then you have to deal with tomfoolery of untying in places you probobly shouldn't untie.


marc801


Jun 19, 2009, 8:41 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
But only safe and quick if you're swapping leads with your partner on multipitch stuff. If not, then you have to deal with tomfoolery of untying in places you probobly shouldn't untie.
I disagree. When the second arrives, if they're not leading the next pitch, they duplicate with their rope end what the leader did in constructing the anchor (or they use slings to duplicate) and clip in underneath the leader's rope anchor or use separate biners. No need for any untying nonsense.
The better the leader is at keeping things simple and not creating a clusterf*ck of an anchor, the easier this is to implement.

One big advantage of using the rope that no one has mentioned yet is that it gives you a dynamic attachment to the anchor, a good thing. Always belay without any redirects and you further protect the anchor. In a lot of years of climbing, the closest I've ever come to a cordelette (I've never owned one) is tossing a limiter knot in a double length sling. I've used a belay redirect perhaps a half dozen times over thousands of pitches.


bill413


Jun 19, 2009, 8:56 AM
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marc801 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
But only safe and quick if you're swapping leads with your partner on multipitch stuff. If not, then you have to deal with tomfoolery of untying in places you probobly shouldn't untie.
I disagree. When the second arrives, if they're not leading the next pitch, they duplicate with their rope end what the leader did in constructing the anchor (or they use slings to duplicate) and clip in underneath the leader's rope anchor or use separate biners. No need for any untying nonsense.
The better the leader is at keeping things simple and not creating a clusterf*ck of an anchor, the easier this is to implement.

One of the dangers of untying things is not when the second arrives, but when the leader is ready to take off. The possibility exists of untying the belayer instead of the leader (unless, of course, you have a dual pattern/color rope to make distinguishing who is who easier). It's something you have to pay attention to being careful about.

In reply to:
One big advantage of using the rope that no one has mentioned yet is that it gives you a dynamic attachment to the anchor, a good thing
Very true!


billcoe_


Jun 21, 2009, 9:52 PM
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brunoschull wrote:
Of course, this kind of anchor is not secure, equalized, redundant, and so on...


What are you talking about? I'm calling BS - If your partner is as experienced as you say then you are totally wrong about this sentence I quote you saying above. Tell your buddy his belays are "not secure, equalized, redundant" and he'll point out that they most likely are and the reasons they are (I'm guessing here). It would be a good thing to discuss and a good lesson for you I suspect.

Regards


majid_sabet


Jun 21, 2009, 10:44 PM
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bill413 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
But only safe and quick if you're swapping leads with your partner on multipitch stuff. If not, then you have to deal with tomfoolery of untying in places you probobly shouldn't untie.
I disagree. When the second arrives, if they're not leading the next pitch, they duplicate with their rope end what the leader did in constructing the anchor (or they use slings to duplicate) and clip in underneath the leader's rope anchor or use separate biners. No need for any untying nonsense.
The better the leader is at keeping things simple and not creating a clusterf*ck of an anchor, the easier this is to implement.

One of the dangers of untying things is not when the second arrives, but when the leader is ready to take off. The possibility exists of untying the belayer instead of the leader (unless, of course, you have a dual pattern/color rope to make distinguishing who is who easier). It's something you have to pay attention to being careful about.

In reply to:
One big advantage of using the rope that no one has mentioned yet is that it gives you a dynamic attachment to the anchor, a good thing
Very true!

I always have some kind of story about climbers and CF anchor so, 5-6 years ago, party of three very experienced climbers head up to do multi pitch climb in yosemite. Up on pitch 3 anchor, lead climber, belays the second and waits for the third member to take his turn. once second reaches the anchor, she becomes ready to lead the next pitch while leader belayes the third. once third reaches the anchor, leader disconnects the link for the second so she could lead but then third drops several hunderd meters to his death.

Now, somehow both leader and the second lost their memory ( as usual) and could not recall what went wrong but they confirmed that the leader did anchor the third and third did anchor himself with a sling as well but third was found at the base with sling attach to his harness with a biner at the end of it.


billcoe_


Jun 22, 2009, 9:19 AM
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Anchor set up using climbing rope [In reply to]
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Bruno, one more thing which your partner probably is evaluating is the stance which he has vis a vis rock quality, your skills, time left on route, weather and pitch difficulty. Old timers can go on for hours about this. There are a lot of issues and nuances which you could get from your buddy. It's something which use to be discussed till the cows came home, but now seems to be overlooked and ignored in the gym climbing mentality world. Basically, think of your stance (feet braced, low center of gravity like sitting with your ass in a depression, rope may be running over a gentle edge even as added friction) as the first and most important part of the belay system and something which, when awesomely good, will mean you need no pieces to hold a falling climber.

[shock]!!

I'm not advocating not using pro for a belay, but suggesting that one of the best pieces of pro and the thing you should start thinking of first in evaluating the belay system, is your body position as it relates to where you are and what you are doing. Ask your buddy. I suspect that given what you say about him, that he is most likely nailing a perfect anchor when he's out with you. I suspect that he's setting up a belay so fast he isn't stopping and thinking of all this, but if he's been climbing as long as you say, he learned it and it's hard wired. He shows up at the stance and bangs out a belay in under a min. which most likely incorporates all of this fliff-flaff I'm suggesting.

Your partner sounds like a keeper BTW, learn all you can from him.


marc801


Jun 22, 2009, 10:03 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Basically, think of your stance (feet braced, low center of gravity like sitting with your ass in a depression, rope may be running over a gentle edge even as added friction) as the first and most important part of the belay system and something which, when awesomely good, will mean you need no pieces to hold a falling climber.
I cannot even begin to count the number of falls I've caught - both following and lead - where the belay anchor saw zero force.


Partner cracklover


Jun 22, 2009, 10:46 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
bill413 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
But only safe and quick if you're swapping leads with your partner on multipitch stuff. If not, then you have to deal with tomfoolery of untying in places you probobly shouldn't untie.
I disagree. When the second arrives, if they're not leading the next pitch, they duplicate with their rope end what the leader did in constructing the anchor (or they use slings to duplicate) and clip in underneath the leader's rope anchor or use separate biners. No need for any untying nonsense.
The better the leader is at keeping things simple and not creating a clusterf*ck of an anchor, the easier this is to implement.

One of the dangers of untying things is not when the second arrives, but when the leader is ready to take off. The possibility exists of untying the belayer instead of the leader (unless, of course, you have a dual pattern/color rope to make distinguishing who is who easier). It's something you have to pay attention to being careful about.

In reply to:
One big advantage of using the rope that no one has mentioned yet is that it gives you a dynamic attachment to the anchor, a good thing
Very true!

I always have some kind of story about climbers and CF anchor so, 5-6 years ago, party of three very experienced climbers head up to do multi pitch climb in yosemite. Up on pitch 3 anchor, lead climber, belays the second and waits for the third member to take his turn. once second reaches the anchor, she becomes ready to lead the next pitch while leader belayes the third. once third reaches the anchor, leader disconnects the link for the second so she could lead but then third drops several hunderd meters to his death.

Now, somehow both leader and the second lost their memory ( as usual) and could not recall what went wrong but they confirmed that the leader did anchor the third and third did anchor himself with a sling as well but third was found at the base with sling attach to his harness with a biner at the end of it.

Exactly - it's not whether you anchor with the rope or a Personal anchor thingy - the issue is just being damn sure that you're disconnecting what you think you are.

To that end, when I'm on the anchor and stuff needs to be disconnected, I make damn sure I'm *on* the anchor - as in weighting it, at least a little. That insures that if someone tries to take my locking biner off the anchor, they won't be able to (at least not without me feeling them tugging my harness).

GO


marc801


Jun 22, 2009, 10:54 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I always have some kind of story about climbers and CF anchor so, 5-6 years ago, party of three very experienced climbers head up to do multi pitch climb in yosemite. Up on pitch 3 anchor, lead climber, belays the second and waits for the third member to take his turn. once second reaches the anchor, she becomes ready to lead the next pitch while leader belayes the third. once third reaches the anchor, leader disconnects the link for the second so she could lead but then third drops several hunderd meters to his death.

Now, somehow both leader and the second lost their memory ( as usual) and could not recall what went wrong but they confirmed that the leader did anchor the third and third did anchor himself with a sling as well but third was found at the base with sling attach to his harness with a biner at the end of it.
So somehow not only was the third not connected to the anchor, but apparently also not tied to any rope? IOW, this party had far more serious issues than whether they were anchoring with their rope or slings or cordelette or PAS.


majid_sabet


Jun 22, 2009, 3:07 PM
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No, third was connected to anchor at some point but somehow, leader DC the third instead of DCing second while second was about to lead. also, you can be tied in to rope but what good is that going to do if the rope is not in the belay device nor its clove hitched to an anchor ?

you see, CF anchor with few people on the ledge is a perfect recipe for climbing disaster.


marc801


Jun 22, 2009, 3:15 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
No, third was connected to anchor at some point but somehow, leader DC the third instead of DCing second while second was about to lead. also, you can be tied in to rope but what good is that going to do if the rope is not in the belay device nor its clove hitched to an anchor ?
The other end is supposed to be tied into something. Not saying that it wouldn't have been catastrophic, with possibly the same outcome for the third, but at most, he should have gone no further than the length of the rope - not all the way to the deck.


bill413


Jun 22, 2009, 3:50 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Bruno, one more thing which your partner probably is evaluating is the stance which he has vis a vis rock quality, your skills, time left on route, weather and pitch difficulty. Old timers can go on for hours about this. There are a lot of issues and nuances which you could get from your buddy. It's something which use to be discussed till the cows came home, but now seems to be overlooked and ignored in the gym climbing mentality world. Basically, think of your stance (feet braced, low center of gravity like sitting with your ass in a depression, rope may be running over a gentle edge even as added friction) as the first and most important part of the belay system and something which, when awesomely good, will mean you need no pieces to hold a falling climber.

[shock]!!

I'm not advocating not using pro for a belay, but suggesting that one of the best pieces of pro and the thing you should start thinking of first in evaluating the belay system, is your body position as it relates to where you are and what you are doing. Ask your buddy. I suspect that given what you say about him, that he is most likely nailing a perfect anchor when he's out with you. I suspect that he's setting up a belay so fast he isn't stopping and thinking of all this, but if he's been climbing as long as you say, he learned it and it's hard wired. He shows up at the stance and bangs out a belay in under a min. which most likely incorporates all of this fliff-flaff I'm suggesting.

Your partner sounds like a keeper BTW, learn all you can from him.
Man, this is old school. Finding a secure stance to belay from. Assessing which side/hand to belay with. Looking for how & where the climber should exit. Takes me back to hip belay.

And, all the stuff about being secure that applied there is still applicable. Although a lot more people belay standing up nowadays.


billcoe_


Jun 22, 2009, 8:49 PM
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bill413 wrote:
And, all the stuff about being secure that applied there is still applicable. Although a lot more people belay standing up nowadays.

You bet Bill, I belay standing as well, most the time I suspect. Of course, it's wet around here and sitting is a bad idea generally unless you must. However, I bet in the original instance of Brunos partner and the "2" clove hitches, he had a very good stance and 2 great pieces. If he had a bad stance/hanging belay and or hard climbing as well, he would have had 3 or perhaps 4 piece's in is my guess. It's all situational, and difficult to talk about on the internet without knowing the route or seeing pictures, etc etc.
_____________________________________________________

majid_sabet wrote:
you see, CF anchor with few people on the ledge is a perfect recipe for climbing disaster.

I don't even think you need to have a Cluster F* at the anchor to make a mistake. Look at Al and Woody Stark's accident. Very very skilled climbers that just didn't see the obvious for what ever reason.

I think we have all done stupid things we didn't get tagged with. My last one was rapping an easy route at Smith about 3 years ago. My partner goes down first and gets screwed up. He winds up 40 feet away from the regular rap station at a hard angle at the end of the rope with one more rap to go. He was not the first to go that way, as there was 3 layers of ancient white tat on a pinnacle. He was very very nervous at this weak looking crap. I showed him how to both stay safely tied in to the upper rope while you put the crappiest looking strand of webbing on the pinacle and you then both totally stress out what you think is the weakest looking single line of tat on the next rap together, and if that holds and doesn't cut on the rock, you can believe that all 3 together, the 2 better ones on top and padded from the sharpness of the underlying rock, will be fine. We burned 2 old biners, opposed and reversed, rather than rap directly onto the webbing like the previous party had (as there was only the webbing and no biner or ring.) judging from the wear spot on the webbing.

Partner goes first and I nervously double checked him as we're in full on hanging on this tat on the pinnacle, no ledge or rugosites for the feet. It was only when I moving down on rappel that I noticed that I was using a non-locking carabiner on my own rappel set up. I stared at it all the way down, knowing partner was safe on the ground and the ropes reached. I always double check my rap setup, and have no idea why that occurred. I must have looked right at the non-locker then just rapped anyway.

Got lucky it didn't twist and flip off.

The moral is that folks like Bruno, or anyone, are right to always question and ask. If you are climbing with me, I appreciate it. Had Woody, who had been climbing hard stuff since the 1950's had even some young punk on his first outing standing on the ledge there going, "Uhhh, hey old dude why are you not clipped in??......!!!!!! Same when Marty Hoey didn't have her harness buckled and fell out of it and down the North Face of Everest. Another expert, Jim Wickwire, being right there, knowing Marty was an expert, didn't bother to even check her harness.


majid_sabet


Jun 23, 2009, 9:16 AM
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marc801 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
No, third was connected to anchor at some point but somehow, leader DC the third instead of DCing second while second was about to lead. also, you can be tied in to rope but what good is that going to do if the rope is not in the belay device nor its clove hitched to an anchor ?
The other end is supposed to be tied into something. Not saying that it wouldn't have been catastrophic, with possibly the same outcome for the third, but at most, he should have gone no further than the length of the rope - not all the way to the deck.

you see, you are trying to be logical and there is nothing wrong with that however, climbers take a lot of assumption and in fact they climb base on thinking that the other guy who leads or setups anchor knows his job and they probably do to some extend but managing a belay station with CF ropes, tie and untying knots, sling ,anchor, haul-bag.....etc is a job by itself and you need to have a clear mind to run that station. in addition to that, you must have a set of safety list and and follow up on it every time and there are no shortcuts.So when a leader reaches a anchor, he has to anchor himself with at least one ( in many times, clove hitch or f8) and most likely add the second piece of attachment directly to harness and this should be the standard for anyone else who follows.

By having two piece of attachment, if one becomes DC, at least you got the backup however, one you are only connected to one piece and that becomes DC, you end up at the base and this had happened too many times..


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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