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mikebee
Jun 4, 2009, 9:23 AM
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In reply to: . Doesn't anyone else out there climb with more than just the bare essentials? I know that anytime I'm off the deck for more than a single pitch, there is at least some extra slings, cord, biners, and other misc. crap on each of us.
I do.
I tend to carry 2-3 dedicated prussik slings. One short enough only for a leg loop autoblock, and 1-2 more longer ones depending on where I'm climbing.
The other thing I always have on my person when I'm multipitching is a DMM Revolver Screwgate. These are great little carabiners. Generally I use them to reduce friction if I need to redirect a belay, but having them on my harness also gives me the option having a basic pulley at my disposal. We were playing around with them while doing some crevasse rescue drills, and noticed that 1, or better yet 2 of these puppies in a 6:1 haul system make a world of difference.
My two most common multipitch climbing areas are Moonarie Gap and Mt Arapiles. If I'm at Araps, then I figure there's enough rap stations and it's generally busy enough that I don't need to stress too hard. There's phone reception and a hospital only 20mins away.
If I'm out climbing at Moonarie then I'll take a bit of extra gear knowing that there probably won't be anyone else around, it'd be 45 mins walk to the car, and either 15 mins from there to closest mobile phone service, or a couple of hours to the closest hospital.
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rgold
Jun 4, 2009, 4:00 PM
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Ok, here's a summary of sorts.
A certain amount of discussion was devoted to the need for quick action to save the life of the stuck rappeller. It seems extremely unlikely in general that anything that would qualify as quick will be possible. Little attention was paid to the very substantial danger the rescuers will be in, not simply because of the inherently high danger of the rescue activities, but because they are stuck on a wall with no way to get down if they cannot get the unconscious rappeller off the rappel ropes. At some point, the survival of the rest of the team may become the dominant issue.
Contrary to some claims, the OP clearly asked about two scenarios, the rappeller being stuck part way down the rappel, held by an autoblock on the harness, and the rappeller being stuck at the end of the rappel at the knots.
Most of the replies considered the autoblock situation.
A few people mentioned hauling from the rappel anchor. Since there is no unweighted rope available, this would require something like an untied cordelette, so the option might not be available to all parties. The unpredictable performance of improvised hauling systems, which won't work unless rope against rock friction is very low, make this a hit-or-miss proposition even for short hauling distances and impractical for long ones. However, the proposal to just raise the hanging climber on one strand a very small amount so as to unweight the other strand for rappelling would work. But this system does have a serious drawback, which is that after getting the unconscious climber down to the next rappel anchor, the ropes cannot be pulled and the rescuer will have to ascend to the upper anchor, dismantle the holding system, and rappel back down from there.
If the rappeller is less than half-way down the ropes, it would be possible to descend to them and then reascend with the slack rope and set up a haul. Arranging to have a pulley point at the hanging rappeller and a 3:1 rig up at the anchor would provide (under frictionless conditions) a 6:1 mechanical advantage, which with carabiner friction will still be a bit less than 3:1. this still not enough to overcome rope against rock friction, not to mention that every three feet of rope you pull in only raises the stuck rappeller six inches.
In view of the extra gear needed, the extra time and effort required, and the very distinct possibility of failure because of friction, I don't think any hauling solution can be considered except under favorable special conditions or as a desperate last resort.
Various descending methods were proposed. In addition to down-prussiking there was a carabiner wrap method, a claim that you can rappel a loaded rope with a cinch, and a suggestion that the appropriate type of friction knot can be used to slide down the loaded rope under control.
Not everyone owns a cinch (and am sceptical that, even if you can get it on a loaded rope, that you can actually rappel a loaded rope with one). The carabiner wrap has analogous uncertainties; you may not be able to get it on and you can't vary the level of friction obtained. The sliding prussik variation has even more uncertainty associated with it. Getting any of these past "pressure points" would also add additional difficulties.
I think this leaves down-prussiking as the only generally acceptable approach from above. Of course, a rescue from below would also involve prussiking.
As to what to do once you get there, I think Hobo Dan's approach wins hands down for simplicity and efficiency. Clip in to the stuck rappeller's device, loosen their autoblock (you don't necessarily have to cut it) and you're off on a tandem rappel. Of course, the slack rope below can be used for tying various back-ups.
The case of the unconscious rappeller stuck at the knots at the end of the rope got less attention but is actually more problematic, because in general it means that the stuck rappeller is going to be hanging below the next rappel anchor and will have to be hauled up to that anchor. Some parties won't have the extra gear needed to do this and the same issues affecting success discussed above apply here. The only possibility might involve freeing one rope and using it for hauling, a process that would require multiple trips up and down the rappel lines and various manipulations at the top anchor.
A consequence of these observations that I hadn't anticipated is that the first person down might well be better off with a harness autoblock system even if there are knots at the end of the rope, in the sense that rescue, although in all cases dangerous and full of problems, would be even worse with the unconscious rappeller stuck at the knots.
A rappeller rendered unconscious is obviously an event so rare that it makes little sense worry about it in general. But it is, perhaps, worth thinking about whether special practices are called for in situations that contain special dangers: avalanche, rock fall, and lightning for example.
It seems clear to me that the fireman's belay is still the best way to protect everyone after the first person. Whenever I've tested it, I've found it effective in stopping a rappeller. The linked evidence upthread about difficulties for ultra-long rappels does not seem especially relevant to ordinary climbing situations. Of course, there is the possibility that the belayer is rendered unconscious too by events---no system is going to be completely safe.
As for the first person down in dangerous conditions, maybe the best thing is for them to rappel on a single strand with a harness autoblock and a knot at the bottom. This leaves the other strand free for rescue purposes.
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altelis
Jun 4, 2009, 5:23 PM
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rgold wrote: ... A consequence of these observations that I hadn't anticipated is that the first person down might well be better off with a harness autoblock system even if there are knots at the end of the rope, in the sense that rescue, although in all cases dangerous and full of problems, would be even worse with the unconscious rappeller stuck at the knots. A rappeller rendered unconscious is obviously an event so rare that it makes little sense worry about it in general. But it is, perhaps, worth thinking about whether special practices are called for in situations that contain special dangers: avalanche, rock fall, and lightning for example. ... As for the first person down in dangerous conditions, maybe the best thing is for them to rappel on a single strand with a harness autoblock and a knot at the bottom. This leaves the other strand free for rescue purposes.
Hey rgold- that was an awesome summary. I hope I'm not offending by making a sort of "summary of a summary", but knowing that a lot of people won't read that whole thing (though they ABSOLUTELY should) I thought I'd distill the "what to do going forward" from the "what to do in the scenario" advice.
Cheers.
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sspssp
Jun 4, 2009, 6:00 PM
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rgold wrote: Not everyone owns a cinch (and am sceptical that, even if you can get it on a loaded rope, that you can actually rappel a loaded rope with one).
I will try this out and report back.
rgold wrote: The case of the unconscious rappeller stuck at the knots at the end of the rope got less attention but is actually more problematic, because in general it means that the stuck rappeller is going to be hanging below the next rappel anchor and will have to be hauled up to that anchor. Some parties won't have the extra gear needed to do this and the same issues affecting success discussed above apply here. The only possibility might involve freeing one rope and using it for hauling, a process that would require multiple trips up and down the rappel lines and various manipulations at the top anchor.
Well, first, you might be able to set up a natural anchor where ever you are at and go from there. If not, I would suggest another possiblity: say the victim is hanging 30 feet below the anchor he was supposed to stop at (or, at least, a place you can build a natural anchor). If he is more or less in line with this anchor: when you rap down (quickly and smoothly on your cinch) and get to this anchor, attach one of the ropes to the anchor (with a prussiac or whatever knot of your choice based on gear and ability to get the weight off the rope) continue down to the victim. Remove/cut the rope that you didn't anchor, so the victim is hanging from a single rope. Jug back up to the anchor. Cut the fixed rope above the anchor (so the victim is hanging by a 30' piece). You can now pull the rope, set up a new rap, rap down, picking the victim up on the way and continue down (as long as the missing 30 feet chunk doesn't screw you later...)
rgold wrote: A rappeller rendered unconscious is obviously an event so rare that it makes little sense worry about it in general. But it is, perhaps, worth thinking about whether special practices are called for in situations that contain special dangers: avalanche, rock fall, and lightning for example.
I agree. Someone who is briefly knocked out and comes too a few minutes later might be rescuable. Anyone who is out for more than 10 or 15 minutes, you are likely going to have to either wait for a rescue (if you can notify someone) or rap out yourself and wait for a body recovery.
rgold wrote: As for the first person down in dangerous conditions, maybe the best thing is for them to rappel on a single strand with a harness autoblock and a knot at the bottom. This leaves the other strand free for rescue purposes.
Maybe not a bad idea. But I don't imagine anyone doing this. From a separate thread I have seen, is the idea of the first one rapping a single fixed line with the climber at the top giving a belay on the second rope. But the whole point of this was to not have a knot at the bottom (that could get stuck), but still have a backup. Not sure where this would leave you if the second got knocked out...
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jun 4, 2009, 6:04 PM)
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tedman
Jun 4, 2009, 6:21 PM
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wow. had no idea this would spark so much conversation, and for the most part its all meaningful. frickin amazing.
great summary rgold. I am likewise curious as to how all the people that say 'set up a haul' propose to do that on fully weighted ropes.
I'll test out the 'loading cinch and raping on fully loaded strand' tonight at the gym. I've got a cinch, and it seems very plausible, certainly easy enough to test.
and also to all the people that jokingly come in and say 'just cut the rope and be done with it', think about it a bit, if you do cut the rope, you are left with no rope. not even half of it.
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maldaly
Jun 4, 2009, 8:08 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for the head's up on this thread.
Gang, please don't use the Cinch to try to rappel a loaded line. I have no idea if it will work, have not tried or tested it and can only assume that its efficacy will change dramatically with the diameter of the rope. Just because you can jam a loaded rope into the rope path doesn't mean you should do it.
But if you must... test it first with a backup belay and test it for the length of rope that you might be rapelling. In other words, duplicate the OPs scenario and try it out with a backup belay in a safe situation before your assume it will work. And then try it with a different diameter rope. Be sure to try it with a super-skinny rope.
Also, why not discuss a scenario that is much more likely to happen: You're belaying your second up with an auto-block in a less than perfect position and your partner falls off the overhang and swings out into space and is hanging, unable to reach the rock. Can you release and lower them safely? Given the sloppy nature of many of the belay anchor setups I see every day, it's not likely that many climbers could lower the hanging climber an inch, let alone 20-30 feet.
And learn and use the Munter Hitch.
Climb safe,
Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on Jun 4, 2009, 8:12 PM)
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sspssp
Jun 4, 2009, 8:18 PM
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tedman wrote: wow. had no idea this would spark so much conversation, and for the most part its all meaningful. frickin amazing. and also to all the people that jokingly come in and say 'just cut the rope and be done with it', think about it a bit, if you do cut the rope, you are left with no rope. not even half of it.
Well, this is at least as much fun as arguing over whether aliens are safe for the 846th time or whining about losers at the gym...
My comments on cutting is just that in some situations I think it is faster than trying to set up some sort of mini haul to get the weight off the rope. If I was going to cut a dead body free, I would want to rap/down prussic to the bottom of the ropes first.
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sspssp
Jun 4, 2009, 8:22 PM
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maldaly wrote: Gang, please don't use the Cinch to try to rappel a loaded line. I have no idea if it will work, have not tried or tested it and can only assume that its efficacy will change dramatically with the diameter of the rope. Just because you can jam a loaded rope into the rope path doesn't mean you should do it.
Mal I can understand the concern and I don't see trying this anywhere except a few feet off the ground. But if someone manages to get a cinch on a weighted rope, I don't see the scenerio where somehow they lose control. One situation is you pull the lever and just hang there because of the weight on the brake rope (this would be the case with a grigri for instance). Alternately, you pull the lever and start down and release the lever to stop.
maldaly wrote: Also, why not discuss a scenario that is much more likely to happen: You're belaying your second up with an auto-block in a less than perfect position and your partner falls off the overhang and swings out into space and is hanging, unable to reach the rock. Can you release and lower them safely? Given the sloppy nature of many of the belay anchor setups I see every day, it's not likely that many climbers could lower the hanging climber an inch, let alone 20-30 feet.
I guess it is because I don't care for the autoblock belays  . Not to mention that it is more fun to discuss something that hasn't been discussed a hundred times...
cheers
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jun 4, 2009, 8:24 PM)
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maldaly
Jun 4, 2009, 8:25 PM
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All I can say is go all the way with a backup belay! I just don't know what will happen. Maybe I'll test it this weekend. Look for my obit.
Mal
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shoo
Jun 4, 2009, 8:28 PM
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rgold wrote: However, the proposal to just raise the hanging climber on one strand a very small amount so as to unweight the other strand for rappelling would work. But this system does have a serious drawback, which is that after getting the unconscious climber down to the next rappel anchor, the ropes cannot be pulled and the rescuer will have to ascend to the upper anchor, dismantle the holding system, and rappel back down from there.
Sweet. At least I'm not totally crazy.
As for how to haul for a small distance from the loaded rope, it would be fairly easy to set up a 2-1 (not ideal, better than nothing) with 2 prusiks and a long piece of cord or sling.
1) Attach a ratchet prusik from the side of the rope you're hauling directly to the anchor.
2) Attach a second prusik further down from the first. Clip the other end to a 'biner or pulley, if you have one.
3) Attach the long sling or cord directly to the anchor
4) Clip the middle of the sling or cord through the lower prusik's 'biner or pulley
Pull long sling / cord to haul, mind the ratcheting prusik
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Guran
Jun 5, 2009, 8:47 AM
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Ok, assuming that I could haul on one rope, here's what I might do.
Haul enough to get a few feet of slack on one rope.
Tie an alpine butterfly on the slacked rope, clip a locker through the butterfly and the loaded rope.
Remove all gear I used for hauling.
Rapell down on the slacked rope while at all times connect myself via at least one prussik to the loaded rope in case my partner, the counterwheight should disapear. If something happens, I'm at least still connected to the ropes and can switch to down-prussiking.
Once I'm closer to my parther, everything depends on the situation. Where is the closest place to build an anchor? Above or below the patient? Is he alive/concious?
I might try to make a "package" of him to make him easier to handle on a tandem rapell and to support his head and abdomen. (Not an easy thing to do while free-hanging but it might be feasible)
Once both of us are securley connected to a new anchor and his wheight is off the rope, I can retrieve the rope by pulling on the strand I rapped down. I won't need to prussik up again.
Now at least I'm in a better situation than before.
My parther is tended to. I have some rope to work with and (not least important) I also have any gear that my partner was carrying.
The situation is still serious, but at least a little better.
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patto
Jun 5, 2009, 12:57 PM
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Fantastic summary rgold.
rgold wrote: A rappeller rendered unconscious is obviously an event so rare that it makes little sense worry about it in general.
An unconscious rappeller might be a rare event but a stuck noob is not. I not of at least 3 instances recently where a noob got stuck on rappel and the immediate help was above them. In one of these cases the person prussiked down from above.
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patto
Jun 5, 2009, 1:16 PM
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maldaly wrote: Also, why not discuss a scenario that is much more likely to happen: You're belaying your second up with an auto-block in a less than perfect position and your partner falls off the overhang and swings out into space and is hanging, unable to reach the rock. Can you release and lower them safely? Given the sloppy nature of many of the belay anchor setups I see every day, it's not likely that many climbers could lower the hanging climber an inch, let alone 20-30 feet.
This is consistantly brought up as a big issue with autoblocks. But to be honest I have no idea what the difficulty is.
I have lowered many climbers on autoblock many times, sometimes as far as 100 feet. And I use an original reverso without any 2nd hole. Whats the difficulty?
I redirect the brake rope off a piece in the anchor. Then I release the autoblock by using a sling on the belay biner running through the anchor to my harness. My body weight releases the autoblock and I control the lower in a regular fashion.
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bill413
Jun 5, 2009, 1:38 PM
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patto wrote: maldaly wrote: Also, why not discuss a scenario that is much more likely to happen: You're belaying your second up with an auto-block in a less than perfect position and your partner falls off the overhang and swings out into space and is hanging, unable to reach the rock. Can you release and lower them safely? Given the sloppy nature of many of the belay anchor setups I see every day, it's not likely that many climbers could lower the hanging climber an inch, let alone 20-30 feet. This is consistantly brought up as a big issue with autoblocks. But to be honest I have no idea what the difficulty is. I have lowered many climbers on autoblock many times, sometimes as far as 100 feet. And I use an original reverso without any 2nd hole. Whats the difficulty? I redirect the brake rope off a piece in the anchor. Then I release the autoblock by using a sling on the belay biner running through the anchor to my harness. My body weight releases the autoblock and I control the lower in a regular fashion.
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xtrmecat
Jun 5, 2009, 1:39 PM
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Gentlemen, I have checked out the Cinch, and I also am the one that contacted Mal. After inspection of the device and getting a good understanding of how it operates and "what makes it tick", I see no way to rap a loaded line with it. The rappelers weight has to be overcome with the pivot control lever, and this is not nearly a long enough lever to unload with my weight on it, even if it were a foot long and made of high strength something or another. Someone on a safe top rope belay may prove otherwise, but I sincerely doubt it.
Guran has a very real world grasp of what would be an efficient plan. Quite a few mention not having cordalettes to work with. I see no reason a haul or prusik cannot be constructed of any softgoods we carry, slings included. Being an aid climber just gives some of us a real world perspective as to how much work an improvised haul would be, even just three feet would be a major undertaking. But still better than becoming buzzard feed.
Rgold, nice summary of the situation, and concur on most of it. Tedman thanks for the query, and all the rest for the civil responses. While climbing last night, I thought about this situation and what the people I was climbing with would be capable of. Could they self rescue any situation we could get in?
I came up with a yes on all counts, every time I thought about it. Could your partner? Really?
Bob
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cracklover
Jun 5, 2009, 1:42 PM
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patto wrote: maldaly wrote: Can you release and lower them safely? Given the sloppy nature of many of the belay anchor setups I see every day, it's not likely that many climbers could lower the hanging climber an inch, let alone 20-30 feet. This is consistantly brought up as a big issue with autoblocks. But to be honest I have no idea what the difficulty is. I have lowered many climbers on autoblock many times, sometimes as far as 100 feet. And I use an original reverso without any 2nd hole. Whats the difficulty? I redirect the brake rope off a piece in the anchor. Then I release the autoblock by using a sling on the belay biner running through the anchor to my harness. My body weight releases the autoblock and I control the lower in a regular fashion.
Maybe you're a little bigger than some (I'm not saying you're fat!) but I've seen some women who, with a regular sized guy hanging on the rope, could jump up and down on the reverso and it wouldn't budge at all. They were very surprised! In the end, the only way they could get the reverso to unlock was to build a 3:1 - not an easy thing to do when the reverso is in the anchor (can't haul off the anchor - though you might have some individual pieces higher). Sometimes they needed to add another piece higher in order to have something to haul off of.
GO
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patto
Jun 5, 2009, 2:15 PM
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bill413 wrote: Ah, but patto, note the section I bolded in Mal's statement. If you have your anchor set up correctly (not always possible, I admit) and high enough that a sling to your harness can give you the leverage, lowering is not a problem. It's when those conditions aren't met that things get *cough* difficult.
The biggest difficulty that i foresee is for anchors that are more horizontal than vertical. (due to a large ledge) Then your body weight couldn't easily be employed.
cracklover wrote: Maybe you're a little bigger than some (I'm not saying you're fat!) but I've seen some women who, with a regular sized guy hanging on the rope, could jump up and down on the reverso and it wouldn't budge at all. 
But yeah i'll keep it in mind when using an autoblock.
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altelis
Jun 5, 2009, 3:16 PM
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patto wrote: bill413 wrote: Ah, but patto, note the section I bolded in Mal's statement. If you have your anchor set up correctly (not always possible, I admit) and high enough that a sling to your harness can give you the leverage, lowering is not a problem. It's when those conditions aren't met that things get *cough* difficult. Yeah i was aware of Mal's caveat however im not sure how you could have somebody on autoblock and not have a suitable anchor. The biggest difficulty that i foresee is for anchors that are more horizontal than vertical. (due to a large ledge) Then your body weight couldn't easily be employed. cracklover wrote: Maybe you're a little bigger than some (I'm not saying you're fat!) but I've seen some women who, with a regular sized guy hanging on the rope, could jump up and down on the reverso and it wouldn't budge at all. I'm surprised by this. Maybe I have just been lucky. I'm certainly not bigger than many (154pounds). But yeah i'll keep it in mind when using an autoblock.
I think by adequate he means in placement not in apparent strength. like you are on a small ledge and the only way to construct an anchor puts the reverso on the level of the ledge and right at the lip. could you deal? sure. would it be a PITA? certainly.....
i've certainly been in situations where i knew damned well that it would be a PITA for me to unweight the device. but enough factors were in my favor that i didn't worry (slabby/vert terrain, easy enough terrain i'm not worried bout partner, not a place known for rock fall, etc.....)
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Guran
Jun 8, 2009, 9:00 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: Guran has a very real world grasp of what would be an efficient plan.
In reply to: While climbing last night, I thought about this situation and what the people I was climbing with would be capable of. Could they self rescue any situation we could get in? I came up with a yes on all counts, every time I thought about it. Could your partner? Really? Bob
Yeah, when it comes to climbing partners, there are definitely levels of trust.
In a gym, on top rope, I'll accept a belay from almost anyone who can handle an ATC. Cragging, on lead, I'm certainly more picky unless I'm so far below my max that I'm confident climbing in "do-not-fall-mode".
But as soon as the cliff is just a bit more remote, or there are more than two short pitches involved I won't go with anybody who I'm not (somewhat) comfortable handling an epic with.
This can be because this someone is far more experienced than I, or simply because it's someone whom I trust to handle tight spots of any variety.
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16stfd16
Jun 8, 2009, 10:40 AM
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break out your emergency Redbull and fly down to your partner, slap him on the forehead and let him know he should have had a V8.
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altelis
Jun 8, 2009, 2:22 PM
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16stfd16 wrote: break out your emergency Redbull and fly down to your partner, slap him on the forehead and let him know he should have had a V8.
And we finally have the right answer.
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ninth10
Jun 26, 2009, 4:29 AM
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Here is a link to where this HAS happened.
http://ozultimate.com/canyoning/carra_beanga.htm
Long story short, guy prusicked down to save his stuck mate on loaded rope. Got stuck himself and both died while rest of the group waited above all night. If you are going to prusscik down, ensure you know what you will do when you get there.
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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2009, 7:08 AM
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ninth10 wrote: Here is a link to where this HAS happened. http://ozultimate.com/canyoning/carra_beanga.htm Long story short, guy prusicked down to save his stuck mate on loaded rope. Got stuck himself and both died while rest of the group waited above all night. If you are going to prusscik down, ensure you know what you will do when you get there.
This was a pretty long and well written report and very similar to a hypothermia and harness hang syndrome fatality report that I posted in I&A few years ago. most people do not realize that you need to have clear agenda of what will do once you get down. in addition, you need to know how to get back to a safe place.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 26, 2009, 7:08 AM)
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sungam
Jun 27, 2009, 3:17 AM
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
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majid_sabet wrote: most people do not realize that you need to have clear agenda of what will do once you get down. in addition, you need to know how to get back to a safe place.
Majid, you nailed it. What's going on - did you get a brain transplant? Yore starting to make awl sense and stuff.
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