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sidepull
Jun 23, 2009, 2:49 PM
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I'm not an early adopter. Let me clarify that a bit more. I think I'm aware of trends the same way an early adopter is but, due to my preference for simplicity and frugality, I'm always waiting for versions 2.0 and 3.0 before I dive.
With that preamble, I've been a bit late to the soft shell game. I was always of the mind of having an insulating layer (down for cold, fleece for less cold) and a hard shell (just in case the clouds open). I'm always nervous about a "do it all" jacket because they have to make compromises. Even so, I jumped on the soft shell bandwagon and purchased an REI* mithril jacket last year.
I've been visiting Sheffield, England for the past several weeks and the weather has been volatile. I find the soft shell works nice for sitting around after bouldering. But if I'm carrying a pack and walking or circuiting problems it simply gets too hot. I'm wondering how people use their soft shells. Maybe the weather just needs to be colder? One thought I had is that I could see how a soft shell vest would maybe make more sense than a full coat.
So, how do you use your soft shell?
When is it really necessary?
When did you wish you'd left it home?
* I realize REI isn't Arcteryx or Patagonia, but I'm not sure the premium for the brand is always worth the cost. Moreover, the point of this post/thread isn't about one brand's superiority over another per se.
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tradmania
Jun 23, 2009, 3:07 PM
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I am an Australian, but currently living in England. Soft-shells are very common in England, and very useful given how bad the weather usually is. But back in Australia, I rarely saw them.
Horses for courses really.
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angry
Jun 23, 2009, 3:12 PM
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They are nice to do a pitch or two of ice in, then put the down jacket back on. They're great for hiking, biking, running in the winter.
If your heart rate gets low, as in belaying or resting, you'll freeze your butt off. They are no good for standing around. For me, it's 130bpm, if I'm going slower than that, I'm cold in the softshell.
My opinion is that they're great Ouray/Vail climbing jackets but dangerous on big mountains or areas where you can't just slip a down coat on in between burns.
I love how well they breath and how fast they dry but they aren't too warm.
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herbertpowell
Jun 23, 2009, 3:35 PM
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Soft shells are incredibly complicated. They need to be carefully selected to match the kind of conditions you will be in the majority of the time.
Once you get that right, they are amazing. I find I'm far more comfortable in soft shells and it also has simplified my layering.
I'm confident with my system in the Andes, and I think it would work well in colder parts of N. America too, maybe winter in the Rockies.
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mumas
Jun 23, 2009, 4:22 PM
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sidepull wrote: So, how do you use your soft shell? When is it really necessary? When did you wish you'd left it home?
I use it in winter for one day ski mountaineering trips when I am sure the weather will not be very bad. I put it on top of a synthetic t-shirt (for example, made of polartec powerstrech material). This combination feels nice while making any physical activity in low temperatures (-5 to -20 in Celsius).
Softshell is never really necessary. You can replace it by other clothing systems. It just adds confront.
If you probably will need hard shell (bad weather conditions) it is better to take hard shell + insulation and leave your soft shell to rest in peace.
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charley
Jun 23, 2009, 4:41 PM
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I see from the other replies the answer like so many is that it depends.Here I think it depends on your heater. I am in shorts and t shirt about 55 - 60 fareinheit. I do not like anything above 80 - 85 and I worry about sweating too much when it gets below freezing. My soft shell jacket is by woolrich so maybe a little heavier than the top brands. It has to be below 40 before I would wear it. It stops light rain or snow from getting me wet. I usually wear polypro or polypro/wool under it. I would have something else to put on when not active or when under 10 switch to fleece and hardshell. I don't think I would weaqr it if expecting hard rain and wind. I am constantly experimenting to see what works at different temps.
To each his own when it comes to clothing comfort.
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hafilax
Jun 23, 2009, 4:43 PM
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Unlike hardshell, which essentially doesn't breathe when active, there are many levels of breatheability of soft shell. You can estimate it by blowing through the fabric. I use a mid weight softshell for all winter mountaineering and skiing top and bottom. Typically when ascending I'll be in just polypro on top and will put on the softshell when it gets a little colder. When I stop or its really cold I throw on a synthetic belay jacket over top for warmth and wind blocking. The heaviest weight soft shells are too warm for my purposes. I carry full zip hardshell pants for extended periods of standing around in inclement weather but they tend to stay in the bag.
I carry a very light weight softshell for climbing in the summer especially on multipitch. It is a good compromise between breatheability, wind resistance and durability and will shed light rainfall.
I'm so much happier with a softshell system than hardshell that I rarely carry hardshell any more. It just doesn't breathe well enough for me and I end up a sweaty mess unless I'm standing still. The only time I go for hardshell is if I'm expecting heavy rain on a multi day trip. At this point I tend to change plans rather than put myself in that situation.
Are you too cold walking around without the softshell on? It seems to me that a regular fleece would probably be more appropriate for that type of activity. Softshell is essentially used in the same fashion as hardshell. The difference for me is that I can wear softshell in far more varied conditions than I can hardshell.
The other thing to note about softshell is that you have to be much more diligent in maintaining the DWR. Pilling on the surface with adversely affect water repellency as well. Harshell you can kind of get away with letting the jacket wet out but keep in mind that the breatheability goes to pot at that point even though water still can't get in.
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shimanilami
Jun 23, 2009, 4:53 PM
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My softshell is the least used jacket that I own. Conditions have to be just right to even bother putting it on, and I have to be NOT changing my activity level too drastically in order to stay comfortable.
I wear it around town. Or when I'm resort skiing with my wife.
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granite_grrl
Jun 23, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #9 of 23
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I don't think it's a do it all jacket, I think it shines in the specialized situations. I think it is best for high output/gymnastic activities. Great for ice climbing, but amazing for drytooling sort of thing.
I agree with Angry's comment about getting cold if you're sitting around in it. I have an Arc'teryx and it is cut fairly close to the body, so I can't put many layer of insulation under it. But this low bulk is great when trying to see what you're doing when out climbing. I have mostly worn it on single pitch stuff.
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k.l.k
Jun 23, 2009, 6:25 PM
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"Softshell" can mean almost anything. Some are insulated, some are not. Some use a woven nylon treated with Teflo or some other water-resistant coating (like the Schoeller in the Cloudveil Serendipity) , while others use a membrane not all that different from what you find in a hard shell (like whatever the hell that stuff is in the Arc T.). Each has benefits and drawbacks. The DWR doesn't turn rain nearly as well as the membranes, which don't breath nearly as well as the DWR.
The problem with soft shells is that they reworked the layering system in ways that many athletes find confusing. Most soft shells are precisely that, shells: They are meant to turn some wind, some spray, and light rain. Typically, they are designed to be worn underneath your insulating layer, i.e., base layer, soft shell, then puffy over the top for belays in cold weather.
Personally, in the Sierras, I almost never use a hard shell anymore, except in shoulder season or the campground. I still use my hard shell if I go back to the Cascades or the Alps.
Schoeller really changed the way I gear up. Although it's probably raised the Teflon content of my body tissue by some alarming amount.
(This post was edited by k.l.k on Jun 23, 2009, 6:26 PM)
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qtm
Jun 23, 2009, 6:44 PM
Post #11 of 23
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I have several soft shell jackets. So for me, it's not a "do it all" jacket; it's the water repelling, breathable part of a layered system.
They're all different weights, and different sizes to accommodate various insulation layers.
The lightest would be pretty much worthless in temperatures below 60, but protects fine against summer showers and morning/evening chill.
The heaviest is fine on it's own until late fall, but is sized bigger to allow for insulation layers; thin fleece for ice climbing, thick fleece for walking around town. Still need a down jacket for belaying.
I don't think I'd want just one.
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jamincan
Jun 23, 2009, 6:52 PM
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I have an Apex softshell from North Face which I primarily use around town and is almost the only jacket I wear spring through fall for regular around the town activities or if I'm just climbing or hiking for the day. When anticipating more demanding situations, I'll almost always fall back to my hardshell and adjust the base layers as needed. I'm more familiar with this system, and it seems more flexible to me.
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ryanb
Jun 23, 2009, 7:10 PM
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Soft shells come in different thicknesses designed for different activities, sounds like you may have a thick one. I have a thin one with a hood (patagonia ascentionist) which is a great piece for bike commuting or climbing in windy blustery conditions...i wear it over a thin long underwear top and throw on a poofy if it is stop and go. It cuts then wind better than fleece and because of the stretchy hard wearing fabric (and the fact i got it on clearance) i don't feel bad about scraping it up granite flares.
I've had it out in some storms and it does pretty well but for stuff where the car and dry clothes is more then a couple of hours away i still bring my old gortex top and soft shell pants.
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sspssp
Jun 23, 2009, 8:20 PM
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sidepull wrote: I find the soft shell works nice for sitting around after bouldering. But if I'm carrying a pack and walking or circuiting problems it simply gets too hot...Maybe the weather just needs to be colder? One thought I had is that I could see how a soft shell vest would maybe make more sense than a full coat.
I don't think you are going to find a clothing system that is comfortable sitting around and is also comfortable hard hiking with a pack.
I am a big believer in pit zips (zips under the arms). I find I can use this as a thermostat and can frequently unzip the pits as opposed to have to stop and take off the jacket. If I do overheat a little, the open vents exhaust the moisture (I mainly sweat under the arms). Other people find pit/core zips as a useless "bell and whistle."
No jacket does everything. Soft shells really work best in cold weather providing some breathability and shedding dry snow.
They are not ideal for warmer rainy conditions. However, for summer alpine where I am more likely to encouter rain, I still prefer soft shell over the hard shell with insulating layers. The superthin hard shells (things that stuff down to the size of a small orange or less) don't keep you that dry when rapping in the rain and have no insulation. I don't like carrying a heavy/bulky hard shell (and more layers in addition for insulation). A soft shell in a downpour will wet down, but it still provides decent insulation when wet.
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sidepull
Jun 24, 2009, 12:31 PM
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sspssp,
I agree with pit zips and ventilation. Indeed, after reading some of the responses I started looking more intently at some of patagonia's jackets. They have several that don't have schoeller membranes, but that look like "softer" hard shells. The thing I like about these (in theory, I've never used one) is that they have vents or thinner fabric near the pits. These might be a good choice for aerobic pursuits where a softshell would be handy. (eg: http://www.patagonia.com/...alpine?p=83850-0-730). Perhaps the heavier, schoeller jackets would be better when it's very cold.
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k.l.k
Jun 24, 2009, 4:15 PM
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Schoeller has several different types of soft shell fabric. None of them has much insulating value. Each is meant to be shell material.
Schoeller Dryskin is the one that basically began the softshell revolution in the U.S. Cloudveil's Serendipity helped to make it famous. Lightweight, very wind resistant, fairly water resistant, highly breathable. Pit zips would be pointless.
WB-400 (sometimes described as a "membrane" technology) is more water resistant but less breathable. I suppose you could make one with pit zips. But that seems a bit much, unless you're resort skiing. One of the points of a soft shell is reducing the weight and bulk of a traditional hard shell.
Many manufacturers have proprietary fabrics. Most of them involve membrane technology of some sort. I don't like the membranes. They're heavier (because you need multiple layers of fabric around the membrane, with some exceptions). Worse, none of them breathe for shit. If someone tells you that they do, then they are either hyping for a sale or else ignorant or else never do any aerobic activity. Hence the need for pit zips. By the time the membrane one adds all the pit zips, buckles, velcro, and other bells and whistles, you have a piece that's as unsuited for aerobic activity and almost as heavy as a standard hardshell.
One of the problems is that the textile makers have contracts with the clothing companies that specify that none of the materials can be compared with one another in marketing. That means that no one will tell you how WB-400 compares with Dryskin or event or anything else. The closest you can get to a comparison is to go to beyondclothing.com and look at those bonehead charts they've done for the various fabrics. (Although even they have removed the old integrated chart-- now you have to look at each fabric individually to guess at its characteristics.)
But whatever floats yr boat.
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chouca
Jun 24, 2009, 5:48 PM
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Not necessary, but convenient. For soft shells to be effective, it takes some experimenting just like we all did with hard shells.
The major appeal of SS's, is the freedom to avoid layering. For remote or cold weather below 15 Deg F, I wear a heavy Wt., hooded SS parka, Mid Wt. SS bib with an under layer of Gore N2S underwear. This is all I need to wear 80% of the time, and I move easily while being comfortable in most weather.
For when it get's much below zero or I stop moving, I keep a LONG heavy Wt. synthetic belay jacket and light Wt. insulated pants in the pack. I also keep a lightweight, cheap, waterproof/ breathable jacket and pants that fits over ever everything in case I have to so some serious snow slogging.
For weather from 50 Deg. F to 20 Deg F, I like a Med Wt. SS pullover, with light or med. Wt SS pants, and a union suit of Med. Wt. underwear to protect from for gaposis. In the pack are the rain gear and a Mid Wt. synthetic zip sweater. I'll adjust underwear and pant choice depending on conditions.
I buy most of my SS stuff on Ebay/ closeouts and save a ton and was also a late adopter. Buying items over sized and having them altered for a precise fit has been a big help. I've made the mistake of going with highly marketed, flagship parkas that don't live up to the hype. Most of them tend not to be warm enough to avoid layering with. Some manufacturers are now are offering Schoeller-WB400 and heavier Polarshield blends that are a better option.
(This post was edited by chouca on Jun 24, 2009, 5:50 PM)
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acorneau
Jun 24, 2009, 6:09 PM
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I just wear one of these:
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sandstone
Jun 24, 2009, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: So, how do you use your soft shell?
Primarily for ice climbing.
I'll generally have a thin wool baselayer, a softshell jacket, softshell pants, and a big puffy belay jacket. If it's especially cold I beef up the base layer by adding a powerstretch farmer john over the wool.
For the approach walk I'll usually not have the softshell jacket on, unless conditions are really windy and cold.
I usually climb in the softshell jacket, again it depends on conditions. At belays I throw on the puffy parka.
In reply to: When is it really necessary?
They're best for winter conditions.
In reply to: When did you wish you'd left it home?
When it's too warm to make it worth the weight.
As many others have already said, all softshells are not created equal, and the trick is finding one that matches your needs. I too use the "blow through the fabric" method of getting a rough feel for how breathable a material is.
My hardshells pretty much don't get used much anymore (except as raingear for hiking). I prefer the breathability and comfort of the softshells for winter climbing.
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sspssp
Jun 24, 2009, 7:47 PM
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sidepull wrote: sspssp, I agree with pit zips and ventilation. Indeed, after reading some of the responses I started looking more intently at some of patagonia's jackets. They have several that don't have schoeller membranes, but that look like "softer" hard shells. The thing I like about these (in theory, I've never used one) is that they have vents or thinner fabric near the pits.
Thinner matterial under the arms helps, but it is not a replacement for a zipper. Thin material does not vent as well as an opening (I also buy my hard shells with pit zips, but don't wear hears shells as much--although I have a light weight "precip" jacket with pit zips that I carry on occasion). And thin material can't be "closed" when you want it warmer. I also avoid velcro. It tends to close whether you want it closed or not.
Yea the soft shell is a tradeoff between breathability/water resistance/and desired insulation. You can customize a jacket at Beyond Fleece (get it with or without pit zips), but they only have (the last time I checked, a while ago) one choice of material for "soft shell".
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jun 24, 2009, 9:20 PM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Jun 24, 2009, 8:42 PM
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Great for climbing in areas like the sierra nevadas or equivilant, I don't think I would take them ice climbing or anythign super cold, but most of the time the fleece/shell combo is unreasonable. you're not going to keep going in and out of your pack, and fleece is terrible at blocking wind.
Some fleeces (like polartec windpro) are decently wind resistant, and thats all well and good and can be paired with a lightweight shell.
Otherwise, just go 2 for 1.
What most people need to realize is that how wet you get INSIDE your shell is worse than the wetness OUTSIDE your shell. Working hard in a nonbreathable fabric, like a goretex, will create a storm inside your shell that takes a while to dry.
The more breathable, always the better. This is for whindy, cool weather with the occasional thundershower/light snow.
also, read this. Its very awesome.
http://psychovertical.com/?cuthecrap
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spicytuna
Jun 24, 2009, 11:11 PM
Post #22 of 23
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I've gone through so many layering systems, hardshells, softshells, insulated jackets, etc. over the years but my favorite jacket by far is my softshell. (Arcteryx Gamma MX hoody.)
I used it for ice climbing this past season and I currently use it for long multipitch rock routes.
My softshell is far more breathable than my Goretex Pro hardshell (w/ zips fully open), its warmer during periods of low activity and its far more abrasive resistant. It's also much cheaper as well.
The only time I'd bring a hardshell is if I'm expecting rain. And in those cases, I'll usually wear my softshell and bring along my Paclite jacket.
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sspssp
Jun 24, 2009, 11:16 PM
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spicytuna wrote: My softshell is far more breathable than my Goretex Pro hardshell (w/ zips fully open), its warmer during periods of low activity and its far more abrasive resistant. It's also much cheaper as well. The only time I'd bring a hardshell is if I'm expecting rain. And in those cases, I'll usually wear my softshell and bring along my Paclite jacket.
Pretty much have to agree and a light hardshell to throw over the soft shell for severe rain is a reasonable approach that I have also tried. The downside is that even a light hard shell over a reasonably breathable soft shell is going to have a total breathability of zero (and any activity/sweating is going to leave you wet). Which is why I am so focused on pit zips. Both my soft shell and my [fairly] light hard shell (precip) have pit zips. I've not found an ultra-light hard shell with pit openings (but haven't looked for a while).
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