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A-Bowl
Jul 1, 2009, 12:59 AM
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Just wondering if anyone else shares this belief?
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bill413
Jul 1, 2009, 1:28 AM
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Well, presumptively the ones you fell on are good up to the impact of the fall factor you took.
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sungam
Jul 1, 2009, 1:56 AM
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Personally I'd check the camming angles on that website, just to be sure.
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billcoe_
Jul 1, 2009, 4:46 AM
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A-Bowl wrote: Just wondering if anyone else shares this belief?
I haven't fallen on them but still use them. What can I say, I like em. Furthermore, I rarely fall, and when it gets serious generally back up my gear. I feel that it's a trade off i can accept, but I wouldn't recommend it for each and every one of us....a lot depends on a persons climbing style and attitude. I feel a younger "go for it" kid who's pushing his limits might be risking his life.....hell, I might be as well, but I just believe my odds are still good.
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HYDEWILDMAN
Jul 1, 2009, 4:47 AM
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They're all good until they fail.
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spikeddem
Jul 1, 2009, 6:09 PM
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sungam wrote: Personally I'd check the camming angles on that website, just to be sure.
Most useful post in the thread. The problem with aliens, that people don't seem to be getting, is that even if you've fallen on them, you may have just gotten lucky with the amount of retraction you had. It's possible that at a different amount the camming angle with the rock might be worthless. (That assumes your axles are mis-drilled though.)
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dreday3000
Jul 1, 2009, 6:27 PM
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j_ung wrote: A-Bowl wrote: Just wondering if anyone else shares this belief? Exactly how many kNs did you load them with? See my point? With a significant amount of rope in the system, a "big" fall might not be as big a deal as you think. If I had Aliens, I'd get them proof tested in an independent lab before using them ever again. Anything shy of independent testing is (to me) an unsafe assumption.
Eh, I'm not worried. I regularly take pretty decent whips on all my gear and nothing has failed (broken) on me before. Suppose an alien could fail on me, but honestly I don't see the types of falls most of us climbers are taken to be so grave that a seemingly healthy cam (good wires, solid lobes etc...) is going to disintegrate on me.
I'm glad Aric is putting Aliens through the ringer to increase their quality control. But as far as my personal climbing goes? I ain't gonna change a thing.
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qtm
Jul 1, 2009, 7:27 PM
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What do you consider a "decent whip"?
A 40' fall with 200' rope out is a good whipper. On the other hand, it's barely generating 6kN on the top piece, less with rope slipping through the device, lifting the belayer, and a few other factors... the problematic black alien could probably hold that fall.
On the other hand, placing a piece 2' above the anchor, climbing 2' above that and falling, is going to generate more than 11kN on the top piece (minus some for lifting the belayer, rope slippage, etc). Green alien and up are rated to hold that... but will they? A couple yellow and a grey failed below that level. That's assuming they don't have a braze issue...
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bill413
Jul 1, 2009, 7:29 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: Eh, I'm not worried. I regularly take pretty decent whips on all my gear and nothing has failed (broken) on me before.
[Not me]
- I drink and drive all the time. No problems so far.
- I solo stuff pretty regularly. No problems so far.
- I surf the internet with no antivirus program. No problems so far. (actually, this one is pretty far fetched - "no problems")
- I've replaced the fuses in my house with pennies. No fires so far.
[/Not me]
Just because there haven't been consequences yet doesn't mean there won't be. Or, of course, that there will be.
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hanginaround
Jul 1, 2009, 7:54 PM
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bill413 wrote: dreday3000 wrote: Eh, I'm not worried. I regularly take pretty decent whips on all my gear and nothing has failed (broken) on me before. [Not me] - I drink and drive all the time. No problems so far. - I solo stuff pretty regularly. No problems so far. - I surf the internet with no antivirus program. No problems so far. (actually, this one is pretty far fetched - "no problems") - I've replaced the fuses in my house with pennies. No fires so far. [/Not me] Just because there haven't been consequences yet doesn't mean there won't be. Or, of course, that there will be.
I load one bullet into my revolver, spin the case, point it at my head, and pull the trigger. No problem so far..
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dreday3000
Jul 1, 2009, 7:58 PM
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qtm wrote: What do you consider a "decent whip"? A 40' fall with 200' rope out is a good whipper. On the other hand, it's barely generating 6kN on the top piece, less with rope slipping through the device, lifting the belayer, and a few other factors... the problematic black alien could probably hold that fall. On the other hand, placing a piece 2' above the anchor, climbing 2' above that and falling, is going to generate more than 11kN on the top piece (minus some for lifting the belayer, rope slippage, etc). Green alien and up are rated to hold that... but will they? A couple yellow and a grey failed below that level. That's assuming they don't have a braze issue...
I've fallen on my gear plenty of times. In lots of different circumstances. Done a few just short of a factor 2 right off the anchors. Done a couple of big 40 footers with plenty of rope out. The bottom line is for me is, as far as I'm concerned, my gear is battle tested in a broad range of circumstances. Provided my gear looks good upon visual inspection, I'm going to trust it to do what is was made to do.
I understand people start to get antsy when you start to talk about gear breaking. But the honest truth of the matter is that I'm not worried about it. Its work so far - and again, I'm one of those types that takes pretty regular falls - and I expect it to work in the future.
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dingus
Jul 1, 2009, 8:03 PM
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A-Bowl wrote: Just wondering if anyone else shares this belief?
I have no opinion as to the trustworthiness of your aliens, so no, I don't share that belief.
My aliens held lots of whips. They are at the bottom of the gear bin nevertheless. When push came to shove? I don't NEED aliens for the climbing I'm doing.
If I actually NEEDED them (as opposed to merely wanting them) I might be more proactive in further testing, eval etc.
But I DON'T NEED THEM. So why bother for gear between 5-15 years old?
My Aliens were retired the day the test alien failure results were posted to the internet. I have used partners' aliens though, without undue stress.
DMT
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dreday3000
Jul 1, 2009, 8:04 PM
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And for the record, I'll wager that the people most concerned about aliens breaking, are the people that take the least number of falls on their gear.
Once you see the system work, you trust it. If you never fall on your gear, you freak out when hear that - in theory - the gear might not be as trustworthy as you originally thought. My trust is based on experience, and that is enough for me.
Food for thought.
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healyje
Jul 1, 2009, 9:04 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: And for the record, I'll wager that the people most concerned about aliens breaking, are the people that take the least number of falls on their gear. Once you see the system work, you trust it. If you never fall on your gear, you freak out when hear that - in theory - the gear might not be as trustworthy as you originally thought. My trust is based on experience, and that is enough for me. Food for thought.
I actually fall a lot and on all sorts of gear - some of it aid gear. The latest FA I've been working on I've taken six thirty footers onto a #3 Loweball and a fifty footer onto a #6 Metolius. That's about par for most of my FA's. I've never ever subscribed to the 'leader must not fall' pap which I've always assumed has an alpine ancestry. I also free climb above and have fallen on Crack 'N Ups and still pre-slice Screamers to adjust their loading curves for marginal gear.
I like to think I know exactly what I'm doing with all the forms of protection I use and modify. I take a lot of risks with my placements at times - but they're risks I take with full knowledge of what I'm doing. However, under no circumstances am I prepared to gamble whenever I reach for my rack.
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acorneau
Jul 1, 2009, 9:16 PM
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healyje wrote: ... I've taken six thirty footers onto a #3 Loweball...
I'll bet that sucker is welded in place!
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healyje
Jul 1, 2009, 9:22 PM
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acorneau wrote: healyje wrote: ... I've taken six thirty footers onto a #3 Loweball... I'll bet that sucker is welded in place!
Nope. Perfect, textbook placement at the lip of a roof - bomb, and came right out first try, no tool.
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xtrmecat
Jul 1, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Yes, with the given information, this is a true statement, and it is easily done via the inturdnet.
weak question at the worst.
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sspssp
Jul 2, 2009, 5:51 PM
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qtm wrote: On the other hand, placing a piece 2' above the anchor, climbing 2' above that and falling, is going to generate more than 11kN on the top piece (minus some for lifting the belayer, rope slippage, etc). Green alien and up are rated to hold that... but will they?
A four foot fall is not going to generate 11kN. You would have to be using a grigri type device attached directly to a bolted anchor (and even then, you are going to land on your belayer anyway). Otherwise, the belayer is going to lift up a foot or two and you no longer have a high factor fall.
But ok, lets assume the alien fails in this scenerio. You fall, what, a whole four feet more? 
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jul 2, 2009, 5:53 PM)
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qtm
Jul 2, 2009, 8:01 PM
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sspssp wrote: qtm wrote: On the other hand, placing a piece 2' above the anchor, climbing 2' above that and falling, is going to generate more than 11kN on the top piece (minus some for lifting the belayer, rope slippage, etc). Green alien and up are rated to hold that... but will they? A four foot fall is not going to generate 11kN. You would have to be using a grigri type device attached directly to a bolted anchor (and even then, you are going to land on your belayer anyway). Otherwise, the belayer is going to lift up a foot or two and you no longer have a high factor fall. But ok, lets assume the alien fails in this scenerio. You fall, what, a whole four feet more?
Maybe you don't lift them at all. Maybe the jesus nut is part of the anchor, so they get pulled into the wall, not up, which requires much less force if they also happen to be standing and not hanging.
Maybe you've taken a couple falls at that point, and the rope hasn't had time to recover. The belayer, sick of getting jerked up, has decided to anchor himself.
Falling another 4' might not matter... or maybe you'll hit the ledge 5' below the anchor (which unfortunately didn't have any gear). Most of the time it doesn't matter, but some times you really need that piece to hold. And it would be nice if that piece held what it was rated to hold.
Doesn't really matter, they were just illustrations to the point that big whippers might not generate as much force as small falls, depends entirely on the amount of rope out.
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sungam
Jul 2, 2009, 8:47 PM
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sspssp wrote: A four foot fall is not going to generate 11kN.
Even with a static sling, a 4 footer would create more then 2 kN, unless bd size 2 nuts are way overrated.
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adatesman
Jul 2, 2009, 8:58 PM
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sungam
Jul 2, 2009, 9:23 PM
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Holy shit, for serious?
I took like a 3' fall on a spectra sling on a size 2 BD nut (the one rated to like 2 or 4 kN) and it didn't break.
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larryd
Jul 2, 2009, 9:49 PM
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bill413 wrote: Well, presumptively the ones you fell on are good up to the impact of the fall factor you took.
I wouldn't presume that. The misdrilled axle holes can result in a cam angle that varies with crack width. It is conceivable that the cam might hold in some cases, but not in others where the lobes are retracted to a greater or lesser extent.
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bill413
Jul 2, 2009, 10:10 PM
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larryd wrote: bill413 wrote: Well, presumptively the ones you fell on are good up to the impact of the fall factor you took. I wouldn't presume that. The misdrilled axle holes can result in a cam angle that varies with crack width. It is conceivable that the cam might hold in some cases, but not in others where the lobes are retracted to a greater or lesser extent.
"Presumptively the ones you fell on are good up to the impact of the fall factor you took at that particular camming angle, provided, of course, that you haven't deformed the cams with the test fall."
Better? 
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