Jun 21, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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I don't use a daisy- don't own one, but I've got something like it- instead of a single loop connected by bar tacks I have a bunch of full-strength dyneema loops (made from BW Titan runner material) connected together- serves a similar function as the daisy in that it's length-adjustable, without the potential for bar-tack blowout. http://www.rockclimbingtools.com/...CHAIN-p/bw763949.htm
This and slings are a poor substitute for clipping a clove or a figure-8 in with the rope, but are great (and sometimes situationally useful) ways to be redundant- usually I have two points of connection to the rock at any given time I'm not on belay, simply because I'm unabashed in my paranoia and more gear is cheap.
(This post was edited by chrisJoosse on Jul 1, 2009, 1:33 AM)
Jun 21, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #57 of 78
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Re: [chrisJoosse] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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I always use the rope to anchor to any belay. A figure 8 should always be used somewhere in the anchor! I think daisies at belays came from indoor rock gyms
-Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber. -Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber. -Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber.
Jun 22, 2009, 4:45 AM
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Re: [fresh] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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clove hitch on the rope. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.
I'm with irregularpanda, zeke, fresh, climbingtrash and Cracklover. All this talk of cordalettes, web-o-lettes and cluster-fuck-o-lettes had me thinking I was the only one.... BUT i CAN SEE THAT I'M HOME MY BROTHERS!!!
I've found that setting a Cordalette with a master point (or 2) when guiding larger groups on multipitch was the schizz, but it's an added unnecessary complexity that is not any safer than the rope for a party of 2 swapping leads. I use a daisy on occasion as well, but never as a belay anchor- only if it's a party of 3 or long complex raps with multiple people.
Jun 23, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: [desertdude420] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber.
Yep.
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Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber
Yep. But a pain in the bum to adjust once tied.
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Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber
Really? Any studies to back this up? I've only read/heard of studies that have shown that a clove hitch can slip under high loads when tied with a static rope. Apparently dynamic ropes cause the hitch to behave differently and hold better.
Also, IIRC, the forces that causes the clove to slip were substantially higher than any of my tie-ins have ever been subjected to, 8kN or more, I think.
The only time I can envisage a tie in being subjected to forces that high would be catching a factor-2, and I daresay that in that situation, any slipping, tightening or other energy absorbing action would actually be a benefit, rather than a negative thing. Bring on the clove hitch tie in, I reckon.
Jun 23, 2009, 2:41 PM
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Re: [mikebee] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber
Came across this:
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The clove was then pull tested to failure. No slip occurred as it was pulled to higher loads. Ultimately, even when pulled to failure, the clove hitch did not allow rope to slide through. The rope broke at the clove hitch at 2700 pounds.
Jun 23, 2009, 5:10 PM
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Re: [acorneau] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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The question of clove hitches slipping came from some drop tests IIRC. I think that if the clove hitch was on the falling weight end it slipped and the weight fell off. If it was tied at the anchor end it held. I can't recall any real explanations about why.
I typically use a clove hitch but if there was a real possibility of a serious lead fall onto the anchor I might choose to use an 8.
Jun 23, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Re: [acorneau] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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acorneau wrote:
Also check out Myth #6.
Great find Acorneau! I'm copying and pasting myth #6 here in it's entirety for the 19 people (so far) who use a daisy chain as a belay anchor. Short version, DO NOT USE A DAISY CHAIN FOR A BELAY ANCHOR.
"Myth 6: It's a good idea to use daisy chains for attaching to an anchor
Over years of climbing, we have seen thousands of climbers using a daisy chain (or a similar "personal anchor system") to clip into anchors on multipitch climbs. A daisy chain is usually made from nylon and/or spectra and is around four feet long.
Daisy chains have limited usefulness if you are not planning to aid climb. They are bulky and are a poor substitute for attaching to the anchor with your ROPE using a clove hitch.
Why?
1) The rope's there anyway. Use of a daisy chain adds unnecessary bulk to the items you carry on route.
2) The rope is much more adjustable. A clove hitch can be adjusted seamlessly to any length, while most daisy chains are limited to 44 inches. Imagine your frustration at a "hanging" belay if there is a comfortable stance four feet below you.
3) The rope is much more resistant to being cut.
4) Shortening the daisy chain has its own inherent risks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58qWRr4LiBY
5) The rope is better able to absorb shock loads than a daisy chain. Some people argue that this is incorrect over a short length of rope. We decided to test this to find out. Jeff Fassett and I conducted a simple test using a dynamometer attached to a bolted anchor. In the first part of the test, I attached to the anchor using a daisy chain so that i hung freely two feet below it. With a backup rope in place, i pulled myself up a few inches and let go so that I fell statically on to the anchor. The force on the anchor was shocking - the dynamometer measured a peak force of 900 pounds on the first drop. I subsequently took slightly further falls, and found that the force on the anchor was over 2,000 pounds when falling just one foot. I stopped at this point simply due to pain.
Similar tests conducted at BlueWater found that a two foot fall (with a test weight) caused a two-foot sling to completely fail. This is consistant with the simple data we obtained; in sum, it is likely that falling two feet statically on to a daisy chain will cause (at the minimum) a failure of that loop. If you happened to be clipped into the last loop, it will fail completely.
On a personal note, I can confirm that if you did not cause the daisy chain to fail, you would almost certainly sustain injury.
The story changes significantly if you are attached to the anchor with a climbing rope and a clove hitch. Jeff and I repeated the test: this time, however, I was attached to the anchor with my climbing rope tied at two feet long (the same length of daisy chain used above). I immediately noticed that short, static falls on the anchor were far less jolting, and the dynamometer confirmed my suspicions. When falling one foot on the climbing rope, the force was about 400 pounds. On subsequent, longer falls, we found that even falling two feet (the full length of the rope I had tied) the force on the anchor was only 1,000 pounds.
This indicates that a short length of climbing rope is far better at absorbing shock loads than an equal length of static daisy chain."
Jun 23, 2009, 6:08 PM
Post #64 of 78
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Re: [billcoe_] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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And before someone starts in critizing the results, the start of the myths says this:
" The Climbing Mythbusters A quick explanation
There's a lot of inaccurate beliefs in the climbing world. Is hardware ruined after dropping it? Will a clove hitch slip? Will the Euro Death Knot invert during a rappel? How often do you accept what you hear without checking to see if the source is reliable?
This page is dedicated to getting things straight. Most of what you'll read there is based on actual pull tests conducted by myself and Jeff Fassett, an AMGA Certified Rock Instructor here in Tucson. In other cases, we've directly contacted individuals who have conducted controlled tests themselves.
How am I qualified to bust these myths? Judge for yourself. A lot of the time I've done research on what super-seasoned, intelligent climbers have tested themselves. As for my credentials: I'm an AMGA Certified Rock Instructor, I have multiple degrees involving research, thousands of days in the field, a really good head on my shoulders, and lots of training from recognized experts.
Keep in mind a few things: I've edited most of the anecdotes to keep them succinct. It's only necessary here to present the facts, not lengthy periodical-like papers. But don't assume that hasn't crossed my mind. If you're questioning what you read below, good. That's the point. Think critically and test things yourself in a safe environment. Nothing is better for building your confidence than your own experience. If you'd like, submit your questions/suggestions/myths via email by clicking the contact link above. We'll see if we can test it out for you."
Jun 23, 2009, 8:10 PM
Post #65 of 78
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Re: [billcoe_] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Looks like lots of good info from the Climbing Mythbusters.
Personally, I like to clove in with the rope and use my PAS as a backup (i.e. the rope would have to break or stretch significantly before the PAS takes on weight). In my limited multipitch experience, I haven't run into a situation where this wasn't possible.
The way I see it, why not add some redundancy when possible?
Looks like lots of good info from the Climbing Mythbusters.
Personally, I like to clove in with the rope and use my PAS as a backup (i.e. the rope would have to break or stretch significantly before the PAS takes on weight). In my limited multipitch experience, I haven't run into a situation where this wasn't possible.
The way I see it, why not add some redundancy when possible?
Because it slows you down, increases the clusterfriggake, and is usually unnecessary. If you climb with 2 ropes I'll sit down. But would you not say that the biggest issue with a rope failure would be a long lead fall? Bet you have a single rope there? That is the biggest potential issue and it's rare for a single rope to ever fail. I don't recall ever hearing of a rope fail at the belay anytime or anyplace.
See Dingus's comments on this thread about being slowed down and Majids snippets of comments copied below about clusterf*cking (CF) the belay for those points being flushed out some more. That said, if you were really wedded to figure 8s, I could see tossing a figure 8 fast then using the pas to get the exact length so that your belay set up didn't have any slack in it........but clove hitches are so fast to adjust you don't really gain if you are already using one.
No biggy in either case, I'm sure it works OK for you, but think it over....are you really gaining when these 2 points are added in? _______________________________________________
majid_sabet wrote:
I always have some kind of story about climbers and CF anchor so, 5-6 years ago, party of three very experienced climbers head up to do multi pitch climb in yosemite. Up on pitch 3 anchor, lead climber, belays the second and waits for the third member to take his turn. once second reaches the anchor, she becomes ready to lead the next pitch while leader belayes the third. once third reaches the anchor, leader disconnects the link for the second so she could lead but then third drops several hunderd meters to his death.
Now, somehow both leader and the second lost their memory ( as usual) and could not recall what went wrong but they confirmed that the leader did anchor the third and third did anchor himself with a sling as well but third was found at the base with sling attach to his harness with a biner at the end of it.
.............you see, CF anchor with few people on the ledge is a perfect recipe for climbing disaster.
....climbers take a lot of assumption and in fact they climb base on thinking that the other guy who leads or setups anchor knows his job and they probably do to some extend but managing a belay station with CF ropes, tie and untying knots, sling ,anchor, haul-bag.....etc is a job by itself and you need to have a clear mind to run that station. in addition to that, you must have a set of safety list and and follow up on it every time and there are no shortcuts. So when a leader reaches a anchor, he has to anchor himself with at least one ( in many times, clove hitch or f8) and most likely add the second piece of attachment directly to harness and this should be the standard for anyone else who follows.
By having two piece of attachment, if one becomes DC, at least you got the backup however, one you are only connected to one piece and that becomes DC, you end up at the base and this had happened too many times.. ...
Jun 29, 2009, 9:59 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] What do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Billcoe,
I completely agree with your logic and the facts I've seen elsewhere about single dynamic rope failure as well as the pros of simplicity and speed. I have a few points that help explain, but probably not justify, my position: -I have limited multipitch experience and as such prefer to be on the more redundant/paranoid side of things until I get more mileage. -I tend to have a pseudo-paranoid attitude towards rock protection (trad and fixed) and the extra PAS helps me calm that (hey, we all have things we need to work on).
Question: In the quote from majid you supplied, he (and therefore you) seems to support an extra attachment point in case one gets disconnected. Is this right, or am I missing something? Are you saying a second attachment (single rope) is always unnecessary or unnecessary except on a CF belay with multiple people?
Jun 29, 2009, 11:05 PM
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Re: [brawa] What do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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brawa - My feeling is that if I'm attached with the rope, I don't need anything else (unless it's convenient to put me at the right spot). After all, I'm already trusting that rope totally most of the time. The more things you have tied into the anchors, the greater the chance of screwing things up, so keep your attachments simple.
If you have you into the anchor, and your partner into the anchor, once each, it is generally easy to see which knot belongs to which of you (especially if each of you is on your own biner(s)). If you both have fifty-leben points of attachment, it gets really hard to figure out who's knot you're untying. Bad things can happen.
I understand the head feeling of looking at the one rope to the anchor....it's like the first few times on a hanging belay...it took a bit to not be quietly freaking out as I hung there.
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jun 29, 2009, 11:06 PM)
Jul 1, 2009, 4:59 AM
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Re: [brawa] What do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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My thoughts are what the other Bill said just above me. I actually think you have a good attitude to carry you through and I'd tie in with you any day, so I wouldn't worry about this specifically too much. Having a healthy suspicion that this shit will actually work will help you think through all kinds of things you will encounter at some point. In re-reading Majids posts (sometimes that's a difficult thing:-) His last sentence, as you say, does seem to support you using a backup ....I could have *cough* read it better * cough * before trying to make a different point! I was thinking of what I believe his main point was, which is to try and make things simple and easy to see and use, and stick with that so that it becomes a repetitions and easy to remember second nature. ie, and NOT a CF.
As far as what I really do....I do make use of a daisy at times just like you do. It will really help make any 3 person team change overs safer and faster, and hanging belays, especially on aid where a belay can last much longer than on free, and might be 8 hours long - much more comfortable as you can change positions and shorten/lengthen the daisy.
Jul 2, 2009, 12:15 AM
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Re: [superory] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.
I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.
Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!
Jul 2, 2009, 12:21 AM
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Re: [desertdude420] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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desertdude420 wrote:
I always use the rope to anchor to any belay. A figure 8 should always be used somewhere in the anchor! I think daisies at belays came from indoor rock gyms
-Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber. -Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber./ -Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber.
Jul 2, 2009, 2:45 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.
I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.
Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!
If the cloved in rope is longer than the PAS and i go for a ride it shouldnt put failure levels of stress on the piece right? i understand that the PAS is static so there is more force on the system in a fall but the fall would only be a foot tops and im not climbing above my anchors so a factor 2 is outta the question. and if the piece does blow im backed up by the other one or two pieces that im tied into with the rope which works better if my anchor is self equalizing rather than a cordalette setup where if one piece blows the other two arms might be funky lenghts. but either way there are still several levels of backedupness in the system.
And how long does it really take to clip and lock a biner???
Jul 2, 2009, 4:45 AM
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Re: [superory] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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superory wrote:
desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.
I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.
Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!
If the cloved in rope is longer than the PAS and i go for a ride it shouldnt put failure levels of stress on the piece right? i understand that the PAS is static so there is more force on the system in a fall but the fall would only be a foot tops and im not climbing above my anchors so a factor 2 is outta the question. and if the piece does blow im backed up by the other one or two pieces that im tied into with the rope which works better if my anchor is self equalizing rather than a cordalette setup where if one piece blows the other two arms might be funky lenghts. but either way there are still several levels of backedupness in the system.
And how long does it really take to clip and lock a biner???
PAS's have in the past blown out trad pieces while on belay.
If your PAS is shorter than your rope on belay, you essentially have no rope. None. And don't forget, it sounds like you're on indivisual pieces with your PAS too, so you would be blowing them out indivisually rather than your whole anchor.
Look, I'm not saying it's a death trap. While uncomfortable, it will probably be fine were you to say fall off a hanging belay a foot or so. As a whole though, the system becomes less safe. It might feel more redundant, but in actuality, it becomes less so. Your clove hitch on a locker on your master point is as bomber as it comes.
Jul 2, 2009, 9:48 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
PAS's have in the past blown out trad pieces while on belay.
Can you back this statement up?
Speaking of PAS, when using it as a part of my anchor I prefer to clip two pieces into it and rope into 3rd with longest reach but set it tighter then PAS.
Jul 2, 2009, 12:50 PM
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Re: [norushnomore] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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I don't have the time to look now, but I specifically remember one instance about a year back where exactly this happened and both climbers ended up dead.
Oh and just a FYI, F2 falls etc do not work the same way for PAS's as they do rope falls. I'll have to look for the source when I have time, but it's something along the lines of a 2 foot PAS fall will put more force on an anchor than any rope fall. I could be wrong on that last one but I think that's what the numbers said. Wouldn't surpise me though. There is very little give in a PAS compared to a dynamic climbing rope.
So anyhow, with your system, you don't have the pro equalised? Or am I just reading it wrong. Why not just equalise your system and tie into that master point with your rope?
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