|
sungam
Jul 22, 2009, 12:02 AM
Post #26 of 60
(3786 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
ptftw?
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Jul 22, 2009, 12:42 AM
Post #27 of 60
(3775 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
the question mark robs it of any style.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 22, 2009, 12:51 AM
Post #28 of 60
(3771 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
milesenoell wrote: the question mark robs it of any style.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 22, 2009, 1:42 AM
Post #29 of 60
(3767 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
wanderlustmd wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: So I'm a newbie...leader and climber. And I am continually amazed at both the physical and mental places climbing has taken me. And after a recent trip, I am amazed at the power of crack... I've decided on my climb. I've chosen it because damnit, I CAN do it. As a newbie leader, I keep telling myself this. It's easy, I know, but by the time I set up the anchor at the first belay, I'm horrified by how badly I climbed the pitch, how useless all my placements were, how long it took me to set up the belay, and just how BAD I was at everything climbing involved. Maybe I'm not a climber...and it's time to put away the harness. I love climbing, but if I'm SO BAD at it, maybe I shouldn't be doing it. A new mental rock bottom. As my buddy and I are dealing with gear, rope, etc I look at the crack variation for the finishing pitch, and it makes me depressed, because I want to climb it rather than the standard finish, but KNOW for a FACT that I can't lead it. So I turn to my buddy, who I know would rather do the variation and ask him if he wants to swap leads. He puts me on belay and says "your lead, if you want to climb it, go climb it. Your lead, you choose" and doesn't budge. I look at the two options and feel miserable. I wish I weren't so much of a wimp. I'm just going to get a closer look at the crack before going for the traverse that starts the standard finish. But I just can't turn away. Before my stupid brain has a chance to wig out, I'm at the '5.9 crux' move near the top of the crack. Can't come down now...Climb ON! Onward and upwards leads me to find a nature given perfect belay ledge with features that are perfect for the last three cams I have (no nut placements, alas, so I guess not absolute perfection...). OH YEAH! Yes, climbing is fun, leading is awesome. And the power of crack still amazes me. The addiction is strong... and almost scary it can actually change my mental states! heh. cheers for reading! ls Telling yourself you can do something that you know you aren't ready for is a great way to die. Keep it up.
Hopefully, someday, when somone named Karma takes a greasy shit on something you created you will remember your comment above.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
wanderlustmd
Jul 22, 2009, 2:26 AM
Post #30 of 60
(3756 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2006
Posts: 8150
|
Actually, that was pretty well written. Something everyone can relate to.
Apologies.
Back to the cave I go.
|
|
|
|
|
ladyscarlett
Jul 22, 2009, 8:08 AM
Post #31 of 60
(3734 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 376
|
wanderlustmd wrote: Telling yourself you can do something that you know you aren't ready for is a great way to die. Keep it up.
you make a valid point. Will I still die if I tell myself I CAN'T do something that I (and my climbing buddies) AM ready for? Because that's more of what was happening...at least from my perspective...
But no worries, apology accepted.
Next time, be a little harsher, then you'll make me cry and I can send that finger crack that has been haunting me...heh.
cheers!
ls
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 22, 2009, 10:53 AM
Post #32 of 60
(3726 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
wanderlustmd wrote: Actually, that was pretty well written. Something everyone can relate to. Apologies. Back to the cave I go.
Good job wanderlust.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jul 22, 2009, 2:57 PM
Post #33 of 60
(3703 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
sungam wrote: Meh, I've cried on both. Crack from losing my left nipple (don't climb squeeze chimneys topless) and slab from, well, run out slabiness.
I said a *good* crack. Squeeze chimneys most certainly do not qualify!
LS - wanderlust was pretty harsh in his way of expressing himself, but I would like to suggest that there may be a grain of truth.
I'm really hesitant to hit the submit button, because I hate to rain on anyone's parade, especially a new leader who's doing so well!
But, I guess I'll just throw this out there, and you can take it or leave it.
Here's the grain of truth I see: it sounds like your lead head is lagging a bit behind what you're capable of. That's normal, as you're a beginning leader. Generations of new trad leaders have been in your shoes before you, and that reticence to push themselves to the limit is part of what's kept us safe through our learning years.
However it seems like you are developing a dynamic whereby the wonderful encouragement you get from your partners is consistently what it takes to get you over a mental/emotional hurdle.
You have recognized the positive part of that - and that's real! It's good to be pushed in a useful way! But I wonder if there is a negative side, too...
How will you develop that little inner voice that says "this one, I want". Or "this one, I'm not ready for". And that voice needs to be refined by way of trial and error, by way of a feedback loop that slowly, over time, comes to know your real inherent ability. Is that really a process you want to externalize? To trust that life and death decision (no joke) to someone else? Even to someone who clearly knows you well, and has your best interest at heart?
I dunno. Here's the thing - even if there are *never* any bad consequences to getting that "extra push" from your mentors, I still come back to the fundamental truth about being a trad leader. Here's how I'd put it:
Climbing is not a necessity of life, like food and shelter. By making the crazy choice to take up the sharp end, I think we are making what is, in fact, a pretty radical claim: To have the tools, both physical and mental, to successfully accomplish our task or fail safely, and the judgement to know how to accomplish that.
And then any accidents that happen - well, it sucks, but that's a risk I signed up for.
I dunno. Maybe this is just what works for me, and something else works for you.
Sorry if it's too much sharing.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 22, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #34 of 60
(3695 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
I agree with cracklover, and wanderlustmd too. I was trying to illustrate the same thoughts through a personal experience. Hopefully that showed through.
There was much more analyze and give thought to in the first (5.6) pitch of your story, than in the second (5.9) pitch.
And, like CL says; not to harsh your mellow (or phych as it may be), but... just food for though perhaps.
|
|
|
|
|
REAL
Jul 22, 2009, 4:51 PM
Post #35 of 60
(3686 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 13, 2009
Posts: 90
|
Nice read, thanks for sharing, everyone.
A month ago at The Red River Gorge I had my first crack experience and it was like the skies opened up, sun came down and angels sang. I was in m own personal glory for all 6' of it. hahaha This past weekend I found more crack at The Red and whilst sitting there in the 15' "runout" synonomous of the RRG bolting patterns I couldn't help but think about how my 180# wouldn't hesitate to break my arms in two, as they were nestled into this rock more than elbo deep as my feet scurried for freedom from their bind. Funny how fantacy can turn to fear so quickly. ;-s
|
|
|
|
|
rockreaver
Jul 22, 2009, 6:10 PM
Post #36 of 60
(3666 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2009
Posts: 187
|
cracklover wrote: And then any accidents that happen - well, it sucks, but that's a risk I signed up for. I dunno. Maybe this is just what works for me, and something else works for you.
I've read your posts for a while. I think that you relate the best of wisdom, encouragement and reality in how you write things.
For me you have tempered enthusiasm (certainly new climbers practically sweat enthusiasm) with your hard-earned wisdom. You always are able to precisely describe what was good and worth it in a situation and you equally extract and delicately explain which parts deserved more thought/care and certainly less "newbie" enthusiasm.
As a TR climber I'm always tempted to think I can walk on air (I mean it's TR right?). Yet a tickle in my head will say "don't do this, it's not safe and someday when you trad climb something like this may kill you."
Actually that tickle rarely happens. So I post something here and climbers like cracklover or others become that voice of reason and bring me back to the ground. The next time I go out I remember the words and the cautions.
I don't think that your comments take anything at all away. But I think each time I climb I have another gear-loop meant just for me. That gear-loop contains the things I've seen and read here. It contains the things I've been shown by guides and more experienced climbers. If I forget what's on that gear-loop there is nobody to blame but me for the outcome.
So I guess what I'm saying is the sappy "neat story, thanks for sharing" comments are great but when you and others come along and tie in a bit of wisdom for that spare gear-loop it's not a bad thing so long as it's done with a teacher's care and not just to rip someone a new gear-placement.
Okay, I'll shut up now. Right now... for my experience I'm severely run out and need to shut up and let the experience of others come forward. I'll sit back quietly and keep reading. I have so much to learn.
Thanks for sharing though I appreciate the comments and the wisdom they offer for those willing to accept them.
|
|
|
|
|
ladyscarlett
Jul 22, 2009, 6:16 PM
Post #37 of 60
(3657 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 376
|
Heh, please don't ever be hestitant to hit the submit button for advice! This is the interwebz, submit is what it's all about. Advice is good, be it soft and plushy or harsh and realistic. Sometimes it's not about the delivery, but the message. Shhhh - don't tell anyone, I can take it!
The caution that people are expressing, I hear it! Even though I have a great mentor, trad leading is absolutely about me out there, all by myself, and to a huge degree, my safety is up to ME. When I woke up that morning, I decided what climb I was going to lead that day, albeit after much reading of the guidebook. My buddy didn't say "you're leading THIS CLIMB today!" He asked "what did you decide to lead today.." and I told him...because I felt that even if my brain didn't feel like it could lead, I knew I could safely (nope this was NOT an onsight lead...except for the crack...) climb and protect this climb. And the crack...well Northwest Books on Lembert, and I'll leave it at that. You know why it's doable by a n00b.
boymeetsrock wrote: There was much more analyze and give thought to in the first (5.6) pitch of your story, than in the second (5.9) pitch.
You're absolutely right! but for me, the first pitch wasn't onsight, and chanting, I can do this because I've done it before, just doesn't look appealing in words...but if you had been there...well enough said.
But I get what you're saying. Sometimes as a newbie leader, it's about learning when to say 'no' and when to say 'yes'. And I can't count on that coming from my mentor, it has to come from me. I have a very 'immature' leader head, but it's mine, and it's up to ME to develop it. And at a pace and circumstances where I get to have a 'mature' lead head.
But let me say, with my natural tendency towards risk aversion (trust me, it's strong), this whole lead head thing is going to take time. When I say I'm a wimp, this is not just self-deprecation. I am not a natural risk taker...so sometimes I allow myself to be encouraged by others to take risks that I know deep inside are manageable and have already said 'yes'.
And it's still FUN! Heh.
Thank you for your comments, encouragement, and advice!
ls
(This post was edited by ladyscarlett on Jul 22, 2009, 6:29 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jul 22, 2009, 7:27 PM
Post #38 of 60
(3639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
ladyscarlett wrote: The caution that people are expressing, I hear it! Even though I have a great mentor, trad leading is absolutely about me out there, all by myself, and to a huge degree, my safety is up to ME. When I woke up that morning, I decided what climb I was going to lead that day, albeit after much reading of the guidebook. My buddy didn't say "you're leading THIS CLIMB today!" He asked "what did you decide to lead today.." and I told him...
That's perfect. And I also know exactly how it feels to be in his shoes when he says - it's your lead, if you feel up to the harder crack rather than the easier standard finish - go for it. Standing next to her at the belay I said just exactly that to my gf just a few weeks ago. Of course, I also had the ulterior motive in the back of my head that the standard finish looked less protectable, and it looked like a storm might be coming. But I kept that to myself.
Now there's nothing wrong with working as a team - quite the opposite! But when one party is much more experienced than the other, I dunno, it just changes things. I fear (not only in your case, but in mine above^^^) it has the potential to become a crutch, a shortcut.
In reply to: because I felt that even if my brain didn't feel like it could lead, I knew I could safely (nope this was NOT an onsight lead...except for the crack...) climb and protect this climb. And the crack...well Northwest Books on Lembert, and I'll leave it at that. You know why it's doable by a n00b.
You lost me there. You felt like you couldn't, but rationally knew you could do the easier lead. But what's that got to do with the 5.9 crack finish? I actually don't know why it's doable by a noob. Never done it before. In trying to understand what you meant, I ran across this:
In reply to: Many parties miss the traverse out of the corner of the second pitch, giving many 5.6 leaders their first encounter with leading a 5.9 crack.
So at least you have it over other noobs that you did the crack on purpose!
Anyway, it was a good story, well told. I've spoken my piece, and will leave it at that.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
carabiner96
Jul 23, 2009, 12:40 AM
Post #39 of 60
(3610 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 12610
|
rockreaver wrote: But I think each time I climb I have another gear-loop meant just for me. That gear-loop contains the things I've seen and read here. It contains the things I've been shown by guides and more experienced climbers. If I forget what's on that gear-loop there is nobody to blame but me for the outcome.
yer fucked!
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 23, 2009, 1:20 AM
Post #40 of 60
(3605 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I know this forum rather well and still I am surprisied by the reponses to this thread. Its little wonder most of you will never ever become proficient at climbing. You are obsessed with safety and rules. Climbing ain't for most of you.
Now we have ladyscarlett - she did in that TR what some of you only dream of doing - taking the sharp end and taking on a line she was completely unsure she could send.
And she exceeded her belief in herself.
Or did she?
Deep down inside when I say 'maybe I'll go up and have a look anyway' this is just rephrased self encouragement.
And when my partner last weekend, Angus, with whom I have climbed more than 2 decades, said - 'you sure Dingus, its your line and your vision?' he was encouraging me to rise to the capacity he was sure I still held within me.
Was that fundamentally different than what ls's partner did with her?
Is it any different than has been done with some of the more experienced of you?
What ls did was nothing short of CLIMBING.
And then she writes a great story in a spare style that highlights a situation most all of us encounter and some presume to criticize her for it.
LS is a CLIMBER.
I don't know about all the rest of you. Why do beginners presume to lecture other, more advanced beginners anyway?
Frankly I was shocked by the yer gonna die comment, it sorta pissed me off. Now she's getting more of it, more civil, but no less neutered.
Coddle yourselves but don't coddle the climbers round here. We really don't need it.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
k.l.k
Jul 23, 2009, 1:50 AM
Post #41 of 60
(3594 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2007
Posts: 1190
|
dingus wrote: I know this forum rather well and still I am surprisied by the reponses to this thread. Its little wonder most of you will never ever become proficient at climbing. You are obsessed with safety and rules. Climbing ain't for most of you. Now we have ladyscarlett - she did in that TR what some of you only dream of doing - taking the sharp end and taking on a line she was completely unsure she could send. And she exceeded her belief in herself. Or did she? Deep down inside when I say 'maybe I'll go up and have a look anyway' this is just rephrased self encouragement. And when my partner last weekend, Angus, with whom I have climbed more than 2 decades, said - 'you sure Dingus, its your line and your vision?' he was encouraging me to rise to the capacity he was sure I still held within me. Was that fundamentally different than what ls's partner did with her? Is it any different than has been done with some of the more experienced of you? What ls did was nothing short of CLIMBING. And then she writes a great story in a spare style that highlights a situation most all of us encounter and some presume to criticize her for it. LS is a CLIMBER. I don't know about all the rest of you. Why do beginners presume to lecture other, more advanced beginners anyway? Frankly I was shocked by the yer gonna die comment, it sorta pissed me off. Now she's getting more of it, more civil, but no less neutered. Coddle yourselves but don't coddle the climbers round here. We really don't need it. DMT
2nd
|
|
|
|
|
wanderlustmd
Jul 23, 2009, 1:51 AM
Post #42 of 60
(3594 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2006
Posts: 8150
|
ladyscarlett wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: Telling yourself you can do something that you know you aren't ready for is a great way to die. Keep it up. you make a valid point. Will I still die if I tell myself I CAN'T do something that I (and my climbing buddies) AM ready for? Because that's more of what was happening...at least from my perspective... But no worries, apology accepted. Next time, be a little harsher, then you'll make me cry and I can send that finger crack that has been haunting me...heh. cheers! ls
Sometimes we do things without thinking. I shouldn't have posted what I did and was out of line. It was literally a tough day at the ranch.
Sounds like you had a good day that day. Reading yout story reminded me that almost the exact thing happend to me when I was first leading. I was psyched! Look at it for what it is: a good day.
In regard to the idea of can/can't, I think the best thing you can ever do is trust your gut. It's not a question of can vs. can't, since we are capable of things beyond what we think we are. For me, it's always been more of a should/shouldn't debate. I've backed off things way below my max, gotten scared when I shouldn't have, and have onsighted things I expected to project. They all correspond to my gut feeling at the time, which I followed. When I was a new climber, I backed off a lot of stuff.
You decided it was a good time to check it out, and you pulled through. Good stuff. I just think that, when you are learning and struggling a bit with gear/concepts as you say you are, a good dose of prudence is a good thing to have. You're gut can be telling you "go for it," but the reality could be that you shouldn't.
The question of whether or not trying .9 as a new leader was a good idea is debatable; maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I'm guessing you aren't "bad" at climbing; you're just learning. Which is cool, just remember that what feels right today might make you wince when you remember it 5 years from now!
|
|
|
|
|
rockreaver
Jul 23, 2009, 3:43 AM
Post #43 of 60
(3577 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2009
Posts: 187
|
carabiner96 wrote: yer fucked!
Ah, but if I wasn't... I'd not keep climbing. It's going beyond safe that makes me suffer TR that and the fact I don't have quite enough draws to lead on sport climbs yet. Then after I've had it with that I'll go to trad and run-out.
It really doesn't matter though. I am. I know I am.
I knew I was when I decided to climb a 5.10b 3 full routes over ground up with only 6 draws. It was my first time ever to climb up like that on 5.10b but I really didn't care. I loved the climb it was beautiful. I wanted that climb more than anything. So I was one draw short. I went for it and made it. The crux was between the 3rd and 4th. I had one more clip then I went up about 15' to the hangers and set it up.
Best feeling in the world. Looking back I suppose I probably shouldn't have done that but it was beautiful so I did. Will I do it again? I have no idea at all.
I didn't fall. I stuck every move even in the crux. It was the best climbing of my life so far. I half wonder if it wasn't the fear that made me climb better? I stuck my toes and jammed my fingers because I knew I had too. I did the math and the fall was on bolts and I would not have anywhere near decked. No ledges, overhung. It was fun.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jul 23, 2009, 5:07 PM
Post #44 of 60
(3549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Okay, prompted by Dingus' comments, I just re-read your original trip report. After my second reading I realize that some of the comments in the thread made me think that something happened which did not happen. At no point did your partners give the boost to try the harder crack. They simply said "it's your lead, your choice". That's totally different, and entirely appropriate.
As such, I take back all of what I said earlier. I was responding to what wanderlustmd implied you'd written, rather than verifying that you'd actually written it. My bad. There was in fact nothing there to be concerned about.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Cheers!
GO
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 23, 2009, 8:10 PM
Post #45 of 60
(3533 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
I assume Dingus was referring to me too, even though I don't really think I criticized anyone in my comments. I was responding to this part of ls's story:
ladyscarlet wrote: It's easy, I know, but by the time I set up the anchor at the first belay, I'm horrified by how badly I climbed the pitch, how useless all my placements were, how long it took me to set up the belay, and just how BAD I was at everything climbing involved.
And, I stand by my statements. If anyone here thinks its OK to keep climbing above junk gear, that is junk only due to the leaders lack of proficiency or mental focus and not at all related to available placements, well I guess your entitled to that. I certainly don't advocate that people climb when their head is not in the game, which is what ls implied in the quote above.
It's one thing to encourage yourself or partners when encouragement is warranted. It's another to look back at a poorly climbed pitch, and just shrug your shoulders and think 'I'll get the next one.'
Sure, she pulled things together for the 2nd pitch, and that should be commended (and I did encourage her in that respect). But what would your position be if the second pitch had been a repeat of the first?
I'm am well aware, Dingus, that you have pushed yourself in dangerous situations. I'm aware you've accepted the consequences of those actions. The major difference between you and ls (or any new leader) is that you know how to asses the climbing ahead of you, minimize the dangers to the greatest extent and then push forward. LS on the other hand, obviously did not asses the situation and reduce the dangers to the greatest extent before she approached the first pitch of her climb. And the difference between ls's partner and Angus is that Angus knows what your 'capacity' is. No one knows what ls's 'capacity' is. Not even her. She is simply too new to know yet.
I simply suggested that she reflect on the first pitch, as there are likely a few lessons for her in that experience. I did not berate her for continuing on the next pitch, or even suggest that she shouldn't have. If that is coddling her...
If you think I'm wrong just say so. I am happy to have a discussion and to learn from others. But the constant insults... And from YOU now, Dingus.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 23, 2009, 8:41 PM
Post #46 of 60
(3521 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
boymeetsrock wrote: I assume Dingus was referring to me too,
Don't know brother, but not in any specific personal way.
In reply to: I was responding to this part of ls's story: ladyscarlet wrote: It's easy, I know, but by the time I set up the anchor at the first belay, I'm horrified by how badly I climbed the pitch, how useless all my placements were, how long it took me to set up the belay, and just how BAD I was at everything climbing involved.
See now I assigned that to literary license, an illustration of the 'climber's inner dialogue' as it were. Maybe ladyscarlett would care to comment, but I suspect she had more confidence in her pro than her words let on.
In reply to: And, I stand by my statements.
Cool!
In reply to: If anyone here thinks its OK to keep climbing above junk gear, that is junk only due to the leaders lack of proficiency or mental focus and not at all related to available placements, well I guess your entitled to that.
You ever do ^^^ that in your career? Be honest now...
In reply to: I certainly don't advocate that people climb when their head is not in the game, which is what ls implied in the quote above.
Its what YOU implied from the quote above. I didn't see it like that, but you're certainly entitled. Have you ever lead climbed when your head was not in the game, btw?
In reply to: It's one thing to encourage yourself or partners when encouragement is warranted. It's another to look back at a poorly climbed pitch, and just shrug your shoulders and think 'I'll get the next one.'
Why?
In reply to: But what would your position be if the second pitch had been a repeat of the first?
Very similar. I'm not her daddy.
In reply to: I'm am well aware, Dingus, that you have pushed yourself in dangerous situations.
Yeah well I'm a fool. I have climbed pitches poorly only to climb the next one poorly too. I've signed up with my betters and gotten in WAY OVER MY HEAD on projects WAY BEYOND MY CAPACITY. I have nearly kilt myself more than once doing it too.
In reply to: I'm aware you've accepted the consequences of those actions.
This, in my case, is absolutely6 true brothermeetsrock, say anything else you want about me I have always accepted the consequences for my actions.
In reply to: The major difference between you and ls (or any new leader) is that you know how to asses the climbing ahead of you,
You're affording me more kindness and respect than I have earned dude. Seriously.
In reply to: LS on the other hand, obviously did not asses the situation
I did not take it that way. Again I hope she will care to comment on this.
In reply to: and reduce the dangers to the greatest extent before she approached the first pitch of her climb.
I don't do that either. Seriously, I don't. I'm sorta foolhardy or reckless I guess. But between you and me? Rash behavior and climbing go hand in hand.
In reply to: And the difference between ls's partner and Angus is that Angus knows what your 'capacity' is.
That's just it - he doesn't. He seen me lead 5.12 on gear. He has seen me flail on 5.7 top rope. He has seen me fit and lean and fat and broken and in every state in between. We have climbed together stone cold sober and high as kites. We have free soloed in tandem, we have both fallen off boulders more than once and broken bones. Have been all over the map. Just 3 months ago I could not have led that pitch I reckon. I was a hurtin unit back then. Not so much now.
In reply to: No one knows what ls's 'capacity' is. Not even her. She is simply too new to know yet.
Tell me boymeetsrock, how did you discover your capacity, your limits? How does anyone do this? I submit you in your career likely did exactly as ls did. I would also submit that most experienced trad climbers have had a similar track. Some do it in the first 6 weeks of their career. A few bright burners take to leading day ONE. Some take years. All push bl;indly against the Gray Barriers of unknown personal limits.
The only way to find a limit is to exceed it.
In reply to: I simply suggested that she reflect on the first pitch, as there are likely a few lessons for her in that experience.
An excellent point and one I can get behind, if indeed your perception of her lead is accurate.
In reply to: I did not berate her for continuing on the next pitch, or even suggest that she shouldn't have. If that is coddling her...
I see you took this personal - I'm sorry for that. Straight up.
In reply to: If you think I'm wrong just say so. I am happy to have a discussion and to learn from others. But the constant insults... And from YOU now, Dingus.
I object to the Pile On Safety Police that seem to feel it is their duty to put diapers on the rc.com beginners forum.\
Climbing is rash. IT IS NOT SAFE. I an very tired of people pretending otherwise.
The typical curve recommended here is
1. Lessons
2. Gym top roping
3. Outside top roping
4. Gym leading, sport following, trad following
5. Easy sport leading
6. More trad following
7. Harder sport leading
8. More trad following
9. Mock trad leading
10. More trad following.
11. Maybe some bouldering with pads
12. More trad following.
13. Finally, a 5.1 lead.
14. More 5.1 leads.
15. +6 years out - first trad 5.8 lead.
People following that path are doing everything they can to keep from being a climber imo.
Take my buddy Kevin's aggressive learning path:
1. 1 week Yosemite climbing school at age 17.
2. Shows up at gym grand opening, climbs every route in the gym first day, on TR.
3. leading one week later (next visit)
4. Inside first 18 months, led every pitch on Rostrum and led all cruxes on NW Face of Half Dome.
5. Journeyman inside 12 months, totally trustworthy.
6. Expert climber in 2 years, and I mean expert.
Now many of us will fall inbetween those extremes. However, in this beginners forum in particular, when I see the safety police waging their wars ofd medioctity I like to point out that real climbers aren't really that way.
Know why? Because at the end of the day climbing is about taking risks. No risk, no reward. Simple as that.
The other thing you will note I am quite insistant upon is self-responsonsibility, It goes hand in hand with risk. It is not implied - I always say it. The beginner noob, would-be journeywoman like ls, expert like Kevin - all are equally responsible for their own asses. Saying they are too ignorant to do this is simply unacceptable. That HAVE TO DO IT.
Or they Darwin out.
Don't coddle the noobs.
DMT
6.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jul 23, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #47 of 60
(3486 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Nice post Dingus, but the "safety police"? Come on. Tell me what I said that even suggested something along those lines.
Throughout, I hope my message has been clear: getting in the habit of using stronger climbers as a crutch may leave you without that crutch and with nothing to take its place when you really need it.
When you're on lead, it's your lead. Period.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
ladyscarlett
Jul 23, 2009, 10:16 PM
Post #48 of 60
(3477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 376
|
dingus wrote: In reply to: I was responding to this part of ls's story: ladyscarlet wrote: It's easy, I know, but by the time I set up the anchor at the first belay, I'm horrified by how badly I climbed the pitch, how useless all my placements were, how long it took me to set up the belay, and just how BAD I was at everything climbing involved. See now I assigned that to literary license, an illustration of the 'climber's inner dialogue' as it were. Maybe ladyscarlett would care to comment, but I suspect she had more confidence in her pro than her words let on.
Win on literary license. I'm sure my pro was better than I thought when at the belay at a new mental rock bottom. If I REALLY didn't like the piece, I would have taken it out and placed it somewhere else, or pulled the move and used it in my anchor, or somewhere else, or whatever. But I know I'm a noob at placing, so I don't ALWAYS have 100% trust in my placements to take that factor 2 fall. However, I'm less of a noob climber, so sometimes I trust my climbing skills more than my protecting skills. It depends....
dingus wrote: In reply to: LS on the other hand, obviously did not asses the situation I did not take it that way. Again I hope she will care to comment on this.
Well, I felt like I assessed. As mentioned before, the first pitch was NOT an onsight, but a REDPOINT. Looked at the book, talked it over with the buddy, and looked at it from various angles. The sky was pretty clear and there was a nice breeze. After that, there wasn't much for me to do other than climb...But as for my assessment at the top of P1 - what goes on in my mind at a mental and emotional low is a direct reflection of reality - of course! Ha!
dingus wrote: The beginner noob, would-be journeywoman like ls, expert like Kevin - all are equally responsible for their own asses. Saying they are too ignorant to do this is simply unacceptable. That HAVE TO DO IT. Or they Darwin out.
ummm...I though that came with n00b 'temporary' tattoo they give everyone with their first pair of shoes...in fact, I think that's what the tattoo says...let me check...it's in an odd place, I'll get back to you on that!
dingus wrote: Don't coddle the noobs. DMT 6.
except when it's about the last piece of bacon, then coddle me! Look at me wasting away...
heh
safety third!
ls
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 23, 2009, 11:08 PM
Post #49 of 60
(3474 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
Sorry for the size of this post.
In reply to: In reply to: I was responding to this part of ls's story: ladyscarlet wrote: It's easy, I know, but by the time I set up the anchor at the first belay, I'm horrified by how badly I climbed the pitch, how useless all my placements were, how long it took me to set up the belay, and just how BAD I was at everything climbing involved. See now I assigned that to literary license, an illustration of the 'climber's inner dialogue' as it were. Maybe ladyscarlett would care to comment, but I suspect she had more confidence in her pro than her words let on.
Ahhh. Well that would make a difference, wouldn't it. I took her comments quite literally.
In reply to: In reply to: If anyone here thinks its OK to keep climbing above junk gear, that is junk only due to the leaders lack of proficiency or mental focus and not at all related to available placements, well I guess your entitled to that. You ever do ^^^ that in your career? Be honest now...
You better believe I have. And very knowingly at times. But, I don't think that that was OK. Whenever I finish a climb I reflect on it and try to learn. I reflected on this particular issue after MANY climbs. Eventually I learned two things: 1) How to place good gear, 2) How to make an informed decision to climb over poor/ no gear.
In reply to: In reply to: I certainly don't advocate that people climb when their head is not in the game, which is what ls implied in the quote above. Its what YOU implied from the quote above. I didn't see it like that, but you're certainly entitled. Have you ever lead climbed when your head was not in the game, btw?
You are correct. All of my responses were based on how I perceived what ls's wrote. Thank you for reminding me.
Yes, I have climbed when my head was not in the game. And, I decked. Took me out of the game for some time.
In reply to: In reply to: It's one thing to encourage yourself or partners when encouragement is warranted. It's another to look back at a poorly climbed pitch, and just shrug your shoulders and think 'I'll get the next one.' Why?
I feel that the 'shrug your shoulders' attitude doesn't take full responsibility for what just passed. It doesn't show reflection or that you've learned from your experiences.
Conversely, the encouragement you and ls speak of does show your partners consideration of your abilities. [You'll note that I later assume that ls's partner is less qualified in this encouragement though, due to ladyscarlet's limited experience both climbing and as a leader. Just my opinion and ASSUMPTION.]
In reply to: In reply to: But what would your position be if the second pitch had been a repeat of the first? Very similar. I'm not her daddy.
OK. If ls were my partner I'd feel concern. Not from a daddy perspective, but as a friend. A tribes mate if you will. (maybe I am coddling now  )
In reply to: Yeah well I'm a fool. I have climbed pitches poorly only to climb the next one poorly too. I've signed up with my betters and gotten in WAY OVER MY HEAD on projects WAY BEYOND MY CAPACITY. I have nearly kilt myself more than once doing it too.
While this may well be true, I think you're being a bit flippant. I would guess that you have deep respect for both the rock and your life. It is certainly true that most of us will act VERY rash on the rock at one time or another. I would guess that you reflect on those time with some melancholy similar to myself and that you strive to avoid those days in the future. I could be wrong though.
In reply to: brothermeetsrock
In reply to: In reply to: The major difference between you and ls (or any new leader) is that you know how to asses the climbing ahead of you, You're affording me more kindness and respect than I have earned dude. Seriously.
You've said this twice now. And yet I still don't believe you.
In reply to: In reply to: LS on the other hand, obviously did not asses the situation I did not take it that way. Again I hope she will care to comment on this.
My perception could well be wrong.
In reply to: Rash behavior and climbing go hand in hand.
I suppose they well do.
Foolhardiness sure! But I do try to avoid reckless.
In reply to: That's just it - he doesn't. He seen me lead 5.12 on gear. He has seen me flail on 5.7 top rope. He has seen me fit and lean and fat and broken and in every state in between. We have climbed together stone cold sober and high as kites. We have free soloed in tandem, we have both fallen off boulders more than once and broken bones. Have been all over the map. Just 3 months ago I could not have led that pitch I reckon. I was a hurtin unit back then. Not so much now.
But, that is just my point. He's seen your highs and lows. He's probably seen you strung out and also in fine form. He's got something to gauge you by, by virtue of seeing you perform as an experienced climber in different environs.
In reply to: Tell me boymeetsrock, how did you discover your capacity, your limits? How does anyone do this? I submit you in your career likely did exactly as ls did. I would also submit that most experienced trad climbers have had a similar track. Some do it in the first 6 weeks of their career. A few bright burners take to leading day ONE. Some take years. All push blindly against the Gray Barriers of unknown personal limits. The only way to find a limit is to exceed it.
You are 100% correct. And the only way to understand your limits is to reflect on your experiences. All I'm sayin'. (Damn that was a lot of typing just to say that. )
In reply to: I see you took this personal - I'm sorry for that. Straight up.
I do apologize for being butthurtzd. I'm a dork. And thanks.
In reply to: I object to the Pile On Safety Police that seem to feel it is their duty to put diapers on the rc.com beginners forum.\ Climbing is rash. IT IS NOT SAFE. I an very tired of people pretending otherwise. The typical curve recommended here is 1. Lessons 2. Gym top roping 3. Outside top roping 4. Gym leading, sport following, trad following 5. Easy sport leading 6. More trad following 7. Harder sport leading 8. More trad following 9. Mock trad leading 10. More trad following. 11. Maybe some bouldering with pads 12. More trad following. 13. Finally, a 5.1 lead. 14. More 5.1 leads. 15. +6 years out - first trad 5.8 lead. *snip* ...in this beginners forum in particular, when I see the safety police waging their wars of mediocrity I like to point out that real climbers aren't really that way. Know why? Because at the end of the day climbing is about taking risks. No risk, no reward. Simple as that. The other thing you will note I am quite insistent upon is self-responsibility, It goes hand in hand with risk. It is not implied - I always say it. The beginner noob, would-be journey woman like ls, expert like Kevin - all are equally responsible for their own asses. Saying they are too ignorant to do this is simply unacceptable. That HAVE TO DO IT. Or they Darwin out. Don't coddle the noobs. DMT
I give you total credit for everything above. I just didn't see as much of this as you appear to have.
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 23, 2009, 11:13 PM
Post #50 of 60
(3471 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
Heh, well said. Sorry for coddling when no bacon was involved. (boymeetsrock? -You've been served)
And thanks again for the great TR.
|
|
|
|
|
|
