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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 6:26 PM
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I've been using a cinch for a couple of months now and I'm constantly amazed at how much ass this thing kicks. Since I got the thing:
I've belayed numerous toprope and leads (sport and trad).
I've caught a 30' lead fall that slammed me into a roof. I'd like to believe I would have stayed locked off with a tube device...
I've brought up a 2nd directly off my harness with no fuss.
I haven't rapped with the thing yet but I watched my climbing partner rap off with his and it looked smooth as glass.
So far the cinch has been pure gold in all situations I've encountered. Anyone else have one? Thoughts?
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sspssp
Jul 24, 2009, 6:34 PM
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Yea, as I have posted before, I like the Cinch and I am amazed how many climbers are still using grigris.
The cinch is nice, but I wouldn't say perfect. It really only works for ropes smaller than ~10.2 and rapping with it takes a bit of practice. (But discounting the fat ropes,) the lead belaying and lock off is great.
And I haven't found anything better. It is a bit cheaper and lighter than the grigri also. Light enough that I carry it on multi-pitch.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jul 24, 2009, 6:35 PM)
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Carnage
Jul 24, 2009, 7:36 PM
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i agree. better than gri-gri
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pfwein
Jul 24, 2009, 7:46 PM
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knieveltech wrote: I've been using a cinch for a couple of months now and I'm constantly amazed at how much ass this thing kicks. Since I got the thing: I've belayed numerous toprope and leads (sport and trad). I've caught a 30' lead fall that slammed me into a roof. I'd like to believe I would have stayed locked off with a tube device... I've brought up a 2nd directly off my harness with no fuss. I haven't rapped with the thing yet but I watched my climbing partner rap off with his and it looked smooth as glass. So far the cinch has been pure gold in all situations I've encountered. Anyone else have one? Thoughts?
Glad you like it--I'd like to try one for comparison purposes. But unless I lose my gri-gri, I can't see replacing it.
By the way, rapping with a gri-gri, on the rare cases where you're rapping a single line, seems by far easier/smoother/chiller than rapping with a tube. If a cinch is better than a gri-gri, I'd be surprised, cuz the gri-gri seems about perfect.
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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 8:04 PM
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rockreaver wrote: So have you used a gri-gri? If so why is the cinch better except for price? I weight 168 pounds and have easily belayed up to 260 pounds with my gri-gri. I've used ropes from 9.x to 10.x and been very happy with it. Lowering with fatter ropes is so much easier... So in your opinion why are you still surprised to see people packing a gri-gri around?
The cinch overall just seems easier to use than a Gri Gri. Coupled with lighter, smaller, and a lower price point it was a no-brainer when I decided to get a lock-assist device. I never said anything about being surprised when I see people with grigri's. REI stocks them, it's no big mystery why they're so common.
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rockreaver
Jul 24, 2009, 8:15 PM
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Oops! A reply to yours was "surprised".
Well that's all fair. I really had wished REI had the cinch I would have bought it over the Gri-Gri but I was short on time, and on my way out of town for a week of climbing. So I grabbed it, some stoppers and I was gone climbing.
It's been good to me but the thing is indeed a tad heavy.
I had it at the gym last night and some teenager saw it. I swear it was like watching a caveman discover fire. He asked if he could belay with it and I never saw it again for the rest of the night. He was in rapt love with the thing showing it off to everyone. It was kind of funny.
Gri-gri for me. I may get a cinch for my wife though. :) I've always wanted to be able to say that climbing is a cinch or something equally stupid like that. The Gri-Gri doesn't lend itself to lame cracks...
I guess what is cool is to see things like these devices pushing safety and such. I feel better knowing I'm on the sharp end of a gri-gri. I get a little shaky when I'm on a tuber unless I know my belay is totally bomber.
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sspssp
Jul 24, 2009, 8:48 PM
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rockreaver wrote: So have you used a gri-gri? If so why is the cinch better except for price? I weight 168 pounds and have easily belayed up to 260 pounds with my gri-gri. I've used ropes from 9.x to 10.x and been very happy with it. Lowering with fatter ropes is so much easier... So in your opinion why are you still surprised to see people packing a gri-gri around?
I used a grigri for 10+ years (before the cinch came out).
The cinch is way easier to feed out lead slack. Can you feed out slack with a grigri, sure, but with the cinch you don't feel like you have to "pull" it through. Although it is not the approved belay manner, you can hold the device open and when the leader pulls up slack, they won't even realize you didn't "feed" it. Try that with a grigri.
The cinch is designed for smaller ropes. The grigri came out when a 10.5 was "skinny". It was not designed for 9.5 ropes. Can you catch a fall with a grigri with a 9.5, sure. But the "dropped" leaders from grigri's became more commen (in my humble opinion) when ropes got skinnier. You have to work fairly hard to drop a leader with a grigri with a 10.5 rope. With a 9.5, you have to treat the grigri like an atc or you might drop the leader.
If you haven't figured it out, I like the "catch" on a cinch much better and would feel much better with a relatively inexperienced belayer (aka "newbie") belaying me with a cinch than a grigri (if the rope was skinnier than 10.5).
Now as surprising as it sounds, I sort of understand why everybody has not rushed and bought a cinch to replace their grigri. But I am surprised that anyone (outside of big wall climbers and other holdouts using fat ropes) would buy a new one when the cinch is better and cheaper.
cheers
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rockreaver
Jul 24, 2009, 8:55 PM
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sspssp wrote: ...With a 9.5, you have to treat the grigri like an atc or you might drop the leader... cheers
It's not 9.5 but I climb with a Gri-Gri and a 9.8 and a 10.2 rope and I've never even had to think about making a catch with my Gri-Gri. It'll stop a 9.8 as fast as it stops any other rope I've had it on.
I do think there was an update to the Gri-Gri (I might be wrong.) that improved the "catch" or I thought I read that....
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pfwein
Jul 24, 2009, 9:23 PM
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sspssp wrote: Now as surprising as it sounds, I sort of understand why everybody has not rushed and bought a cinch to replace their grigri. But I am surprised that anyone (outside of big wall climbers and other holdouts using fat ropes) would buy a new one when the cinch is better and cheaper. cheers
My point was that the OP listed things that a cinch can do as if they somehow make the cinch special: they don't. By the way, I've been using gri-gri since long before there was an REI where I live (Boulder)--no one needs to project their REI issues onto anyone else.
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sspssp
Jul 24, 2009, 9:42 PM
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rockreaver wrote: sspssp wrote: ...With a 9.5, you have to treat the grigri like an atc or you might drop the leader... cheers It's not 9.5 but I climb with a Gri-Gri and a 9.8 and a 10.2 rope and I've never even had to think about making a catch with my Gri-Gri. It'll stop a 9.8 as fast as it stops any other rope I've had it on. I do think there was an update to the Gri-Gri (I might be wrong.) that improved the "catch" or I thought I read that....
Yea, I try to be careful and say A is better than B, as opposed to saying B can not (or B is bad).
You can catch a lead fall with a 9.2mm rope using a hip belay, but there is less margin for error than if you use a belay device.
I've used a grigri with a 9.2 for lead and a 7mm static for topropping.
Say the leader falls on a 10.5mm rope belayed by a grigri. Even if the belayer is pulling out slack or otherwise has the device slightly squeezed, it will lock up. Now take that same scenario and make it a slick 10.0mm rope. It think this is why the incidence of dropped leaders has increased. Is this a "belayer mistake", sure. But the margin is smaller. And the accident reports are full of various "mistakes". Lots of climbers have made them.
Now, most belayers (thankfully) have not "dropped" a leader. But I think many are surprised how much rope can reel out if the device doesn't lock up immediately. So, sure, when it locks up immediately, it will stop a 9.8 as fast as a 10.5. But the locking up in the first place is not as forgiving.
I had not heard anything about a change to the grigri. But a new device (or a tweak to the old) would make sense given how much ropes have shrunk in the last 10 years.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jul 24, 2009, 9:43 PM)
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Carnage
Jul 24, 2009, 9:53 PM
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pfwein wrote: sspssp wrote: Now as surprising as it sounds, I sort of understand why everybody has not rushed and bought a cinch to replace their grigri. But I am surprised that anyone (outside of big wall climbers and other holdouts using fat ropes) would buy a new one when the cinch is better and cheaper. cheers We're probably on the same page. I'm not planning on replacing my gri-gri until I need to for some reason (and with practice, belaying a leader is no problem at all), but my sense is that the majority of people who have used both prefer the cinch. So if/when I need to replace, I'll check it out. My point was that the OP listed things that a cinch can do as if they somehow make the cinch special: they don't. By the way, I've been using gri-gri since long before there was an REI where I live (Boulder)--no one needs to project their REI issues onto anyone else.
i dont think the cinch is so amazing that you should go out and replace your gri gri, but if someone is in the market to replace or buy their first "assisted" locking device, i always say cinch.
as others have stated feeding for a leader is effortless. on my 9.7 rope you dont even have to pull slack out (when used correctly). the rope basically slides out by itself (you do however still have to watch the break strand of course). my partner almost never uses his non break hand to pull slack out when im climbing. i've never been able to noticed it when i climb.
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bill413
Jul 25, 2009, 2:24 AM
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rockreaver wrote: What does concern me is that on long lowers with one hand, controlling the descent isn't a real picnic. Sure I can let go the brake (sezing the rope) and take a cooler but I don't like having to do that. I've had to rig a criss-cross from leg-loop to leg-loop to keep lowering manageable but I think that's candy-ass that a touted $100 device should require that.
Yes - agreed on lowers. It's a very "handed" device; so far as lowering is concerned, it's right hand on the brake strand, left on the lever. (BTW - If folks complain about rappels, I believe that was not one of its original design parameters. It's a belay device, not really a rappel device.)
In reply to: I weight 168 pounds and have easily belayed up to 260 pounds with my gri-gri.
Your weight has no bearing on the weight of what you can belay. The device is providing friction, it doesn't care what you weigh. Your weight is relevant to whether you anchor or not...how much you will be pulled up...but it's your grip strength & the device friction/grip that determines what you can catch.
In reply to: The cinch is designed for smaller ropes. The grigri came out when a 10.5 was "skinny". It was not designed for 9.5 ropes. Can you catch a fall with a grigri with a 9.5, sure. But the "dropped" leaders from grigri's became more commen (in my humble opinion) when ropes got skinnier.
I agree, the Grigri is better suited to fatter ropes than thinner ones. I think dropped leaders, seconds, and TR'ers are more from lack of knowledge/technique than anything else. But, then, using a device not suited for the rope being used comes under that category.
In reply to: You can catch a lead fall with a 9.2mm rope using a hip belay, but there is less margin for error than if you use a belay device.
Good point.
Personal statement: I own a Grigri, and use it occaisionally. I also use an HMS, an ATC, a Petzl Reverso (I) (though giving this up since I got the Guide), and a BD Guide. I consider the Grigri (and by extension Cinch) a specialized device. I am perfectly willing to rant against it...but that may be a different thread.
Sounds like:
Cinch is better for thinner single ropes.
Grigri is better for fatter single ropes.
Cinch is smoother to feed out rope.
Korrect?
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tedman
Jul 25, 2009, 2:59 AM
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Korrect. although not sure about the grigri being better for fatter ropes. The range on the cinch as printed on the device is 9.4-11mm, dunno anyone but big wallers that use >11mm ropes. The only thing the grigri does better than the cinch is lower (and I would assume rappel) smoothly and effortlessly. The gray area between fully locked and fully open on a weighted lower is quite a bit smaller on the cinch than on the grigri, so it takes a bit of getting used to to find that perfect lower speed. It weighs less, is smaller, costs less, and feeds faster. All that being said, I wouldnt replace a grigri, but if I lost one or was in the market for my first brake assist device (as I was recently when I started gearing up for a zion wall) I would go with, and went with the cinch.
And just in case anyone is wondering, in the big wall scenario, the cinch works great for jugging in the frog style too!
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USnavy
Jul 25, 2009, 3:08 AM
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bill413 wrote: rockreaver wrote: What does concern me is that on long lowers with one hand, controlling the descent isn't a real picnic. Sure I can let go the brake (sezing the rope) and take a cooler but I don't like having to do that. I've had to rig a criss-cross from leg-loop to leg-loop to keep lowering manageable but I think that's candy-ass that a touted $100 device should require that. Yes - agreed on lowers. It's a very "handed" device; so far as lowering is concerned, it's right hand on the brake strand, left on the lever. (BTW - If folks complain about rappels, I believe that was not one of its original design parameters. It's a belay device, not really a rappel device.) In reply to: I weight 168 pounds and have easily belayed up to 260 pounds with my gri-gri. The device is providing friction, it doesn't care what you weigh. Your weight is relevant to whether you anchor or not...how much you will be pulled up...but it's your grip strength & the device friction/grip that determines what you can catch. In reply to: The cinch is designed for smaller ropes. The grigri came out when a 10.5 was "skinny". It was not designed for 9.5 ropes. Can you catch a fall with a grigri with a 9.5, sure. But the "dropped" leaders from grigri's became more commen (in my humble opinion) when ropes got skinnier. I agree, the Grigri is better suited to fatter ropes than thinner ones. I think dropped leaders, seconds, and TR'ers are more from lack of knowledge/technique than anything else. But, then, using a device not suited for the rope being used comes under that category. In reply to: You can catch a lead fall with a 9.2mm rope using a hip belay, but there is less margin for error than if you use a belay device. Cinch is better for thinner single ropes. Grigri is better for fatter single ropes. Cinch is smoother to feed out rope. Korrect?
Cinch is better for fatter single ropes.
Cinch is smoother to feed out rope.
The only thing the GriGri beats the Cinch in is ease of lowering. In all cases regardless of the rope diameter the Cinch rules. I have used the Grigri and Cinch on everything from 11 mm to 9.1 mm and the Cinch is always easier to pay out slack with.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 25, 2009, 3:11 AM)
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jt512
Jul 25, 2009, 3:28 AM
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rockreaver wrote: What does concern me is that on long lowers with one hand, controlling the descent isn't a real picnic.
Wear belay gloves.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 25, 2009, 3:33 AM
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sspssp wrote: Although it is not the approved belay manner, you can hold the device open and when the leader pulls up slack, they won't even realize you didn't "feed" it. Try that with a grigri.
If you can't do that with a grigri, then your rope is too fat for the 21st Century.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 25, 2009, 3:38 AM
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bill413 wrote: In reply to: I weight 168 pounds and have easily belayed up to 260 pounds with my gri-gri. The device is providing friction, it doesn't care what you weigh. Your weight is relevant to whether you anchor or not...how much you will be pulled up...but it's your grip strength & the device friction/grip that determines what you can catch.
Thank you. I've been meaning to make this point for a decade, but somehow have never seemed to get around to it.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 25, 2009, 3:39 AM)
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climberguy2011
Jul 25, 2009, 9:07 PM
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I've used one a fair bit, but still prefer my gri gri.
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2009, 11:46 AM
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climberguy2011 wrote: I've used one a fair bit, but still prefer my gri gri.
+ 1
Except I've used the cinch A LOT and still prefer the gri-gri. The cinch twists the rope a lot more than the gri gri due to how it bites the rope. When used correctly, the gri gri won't cause the rope to coil nearly as much as the cinch.
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knieveltech
Jul 27, 2009, 4:09 PM
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lodi5onu wrote: climberguy2011 wrote: I've used one a fair bit, but still prefer my gri gri. + 1 Except I've used the cinch A LOT and still prefer the gri-gri. The cinch twists the rope a lot more than the gri gri due to how it bites the rope. When used correctly, the gri gri won't cause the rope to coil nearly as much as the cinch.
You must be doing something weird. I've tried my cinch with ropes from 9.8 to 11 and have yet to see it kink the rope at all.
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Carnage
Jul 27, 2009, 4:14 PM
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knieveltech wrote: lodi5onu wrote: climberguy2011 wrote: I've used one a fair bit, but still prefer my gri gri. + 1 Except I've used the cinch A LOT and still prefer the gri-gri. The cinch twists the rope a lot more than the gri gri due to how it bites the rope. When used correctly, the gri gri won't cause the rope to coil nearly as much as the cinch. You must be doing something weird. I've tried my cinch with ropes from 9.8 to 11 and have yet to see it kink the rope at all.
yea mine doesnt twist the rope either.
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knieveltech
Jul 27, 2009, 4:32 PM
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Holy shit, there's an eye-opener. I'd love to hear Trango's take on this.
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hafilax
Jul 27, 2009, 6:41 PM
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The Cinch is designed to have a peak breaking force and will slip. It is not designed to hold high static forces with a stopper knot blocking it. If you search you will find maldaly's response to this study.
Basically they tested a failure mode in a scenario that shouldn't be done with the Cinch. This is one reason why they strongly recommend against lead soloing with the Cinch.
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