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chadnsc
Jul 27, 2009, 5:16 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that all the insults directed towards Jay more accurately describe Jeremiah’s personality?
I’m just saying.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2009, 5:23 PM
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chadnsc wrote: Has anyone else noticed that all the insults directed towards Jay more accurately describe Jeremiah’s personality?
I sure noticed it. Remarkably, Jeremiah's own insults, in particular.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 27, 2009, 5:24 PM)
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sungam
Jul 27, 2009, 5:30 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: sungam wrote: Dude, handicapped people shouldn't get to see arches. Heh. I can take that a million different ways, and yet, I have no clue how to take that.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 5:47 PM
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sungam wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: sungam wrote: Dude, handicapped people shouldn't get to see arches. Heh. I can take that a million different ways, and yet, I have no clue how to take that. You don't remember when we were in Arches NP, the conversation we had about the paths etc.?
OOOhhhh...heh, yeah. I remember that conversation now. Jeremiah scored on that argument, much to my dismay. 
For reference for the others: Magnus and I felt that ordinary people would love to keep the wilderness wild with only a few amenities to make things easier for those with disabilities. Jeremiah felt that opening up the wilderness to anyone inherently destroyed the wildnerness. We argued that ordinary people would still want to protect that wilderness despite increased access. He argued that every bit of access increases the desire for more access.
In the end, we decided to ask a random couple viewing one of the arches if they would prefer if the path went right up to the arch instead of 100 yards below. Magnus and I expected the answer to be that the current path, 100 yards below the arch, would be acceptable. Jeremiah assumed they would want the path to go all the way up. So Magnus asked them (I forget the questioning style, but it was fair and not geared toward a specific answer). The couple immediately said, "sure, we'd LOVE it if the path went right up to the arch. So Jeremiah's belief that any access leads to greater access had some merit (albeit this conclusion was reached very unscientifically).
He is much more into not bringing wildlife down to the mass's level. I'm more in between.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 5:49 PM
Post #30 of 810
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chadnsc wrote: Has anyone else noticed that all the insults directed towards Jay more accurately describe Jeremiah’s personality? I’m just saying.
Personality? I don't think that's what you meant to say. I'm pretty sure you have no clue what his personality is.
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chadnsc
Jul 27, 2009, 6:40 PM
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Excuse me; his online personality, aka how he has portrayed himself on this site and on his blog.
I am pretty sure I have a rather good idea what his online personality is.
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jmeizis
Jul 27, 2009, 9:51 PM
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I don't think you care what anyone thinks about you because you're a self absorbed whiner.
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jmeizis
Jul 27, 2009, 10:02 PM
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I think style and ethics go hand in hand. I think the person who is too scared to do anything but hang dog or top-rope, probably is more likely to want convenience anchors and more bolts. The person with more mental fortitude will likely be able to think about the effects their decisions have on others.
The style you pursue effects the ethics you follow. Probably why Jay so vehemenently disagrees with me.
No it won't effect me in the least if you only ever hang out in the gym or toprope. I think a person doing so would be missing out on a lot of what the sport has to offer, but that's not really as big a deal to me. It will effect me when the bolt clipping, convenience crowd of people start making decisions in the climbing community that effect the rest of us.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2009, 10:03 PM
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jmeizis wrote: self absorbed whiner.
There you go again!
Jay
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DexterRutecki
Jul 27, 2009, 10:41 PM
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jmeizis wrote: It will effect me when the bolt clipping, convenience crowd of people start making decisions in the climbing community that effect the rest of us.
Speak plain...does that long winded essay about feeling connected to your fellow brother via the UIAA certified umbilical cord of love just amount to....you don't like sport climbers? Do you consider Sharma one of the bolt clipping convenience crowd, who you don't want making decisions that affect you?
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jt512
Jul 27, 2009, 10:49 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Probably why Jay so vehemenently disagrees with me.
No. I disagree with you because I think you're a phony, hypocritical, pretentious, vacuous, judgmental bullshitter.
Jay
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hafilax
Jul 27, 2009, 11:12 PM
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There is plenty of adventure climbing to be found in the world; you're just not going to find it at a sport crag.
What brought this on? Did somebody rap bolt Half Dome or something?
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 11:13 PM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jeremiah has just posted his most recent thoughts on his frustration with today's climbing scene and the beauty of adventure: The Brotherhood of the Rope is short, but it doesn't hold anything back. Readers who manage to endure the insufferably melodramatic opening quote will be rewarded with the most pretentious and judgmental climbing writing they have ever seen. Jay
OK, so you don't agree. That's fine. In fact, it's OK to not even like the guy if that's your thing. But seriously, other than trashing it, you haven't said anything. I'm pretty sure the only reason he's trashing you is because of your initial post.
Other than saying it is pretentious, explain why. A few others have tried to engage on a more serious level. Can you?
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stabla
Jul 27, 2009, 11:28 PM
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jmeizis wrote: I think style and ethics go hand in hand. I think the person who is too scared to do anything but hang dog or top-rope, probably is more likely to want convenience anchors and more bolts. The person with more mental fortitude will likely be able to think about the effects their decisions have on others. The style you pursue effects the ethics you follow. Probably why Jay so vehemenently disagrees with me. No it won't effect me in the least if you only ever hang out in the gym or toprope. I think a person doing so would be missing out on a lot of what the sport has to offer, but that's not really as big a deal to me. It will effect me when the bolt clipping, convenience crowd of people start making decisions in the climbing community that effect the rest of us.
I used to feel like this for about 1 year of my college career (freshman). I used to argue with climbers about ethics for hours. I tried to convince every person I knew that traditional climbing was the only true path. I fervently believed that I knew what the true experience was because it was the one I was familiar with.
Growing up in NC i thought I had obtained the most "pure" form of climbing instruction/upbringing/experience. No guided trips, no instruction just a bunch of redneck kids in the mountains tying death triangles etc on trad classics. We were lucky we all survived to climb another day.
I then went to university in Minnesota after spending my youth in SC/NC. I noticed that many (young) Minnesota climbers didn't have the same experience as myself. They had crags like Red Wing, Taylors Falls, and Palisades. Most of these areas are sport or easily top-roped. I used to try and convince them that the most prestigious/pure climbing was on scary run-out NC trad. Boy was my ego overwhelmingly large then... I used to preach against gyms etc. and how bolts were sacrilege to our sport/ethics.
Then one day I started to take a step back and ask myself a few questions about the origins of my beliefs:
Why is it that my climbing experience is any more precious than any other climber's?
Is it really possible for everyone to have the same upbringing and value system (geographically speaking) as I do? It is more accessible for young Minnesota climbers to climb in these areas which don't have a large amount or pure trad routes.
Am I really having more fun at a hanging natural belay in NC than clipping bolts at the RRG?
Are all young climbers after convenience for negative reasons or are they forced into that situation?
It all comes down to personal experience. We are a community of people that aren't tied together by but one thing. Having fun on rock. Thats the bottom line. Even if a climber does clip bolts because its convenient doesn't mean they don't value what climbing really has to offer. Good times with good people. So I urge you to take a step back and be truley skeptical about the beliefs your are forming at a young age (I assume you are young since you are a student). I know many who grew up in gyms and appear to be in it for convenience. However, upon striking up a conversation with them that isn't the case.
I think the next wave of climbers will only need to remember one thing: Have fun and tread lightly upon the earth (while remaining respectful to the awesome forefathers/FAist in their local areas). We are a tribe (like DMT has said in the past) and it would sadden me to see one viewpoint/set of regulations be forced on the rest of the community. No one person has the perfect climbing experience. There is no such thing as perfection. It simply does not exist.
Peace
Blake
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jmeizis
Jul 27, 2009, 11:31 PM
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No, it's little to do with sport climbers or anything in particular as it has to do with the feeling of being in a community that's kind of headed downhill. The feeling could be more acute because I'm surrounded by gumbies all the time who want convenience anchors and bolted cracks (which I've been finding a lot of recently).
I wouldn't consider Sharma to be one of those people per say. I do think he has a lot of influence on the way other climbers view the community and the way he is portrayed by others (it could be him doing the portraying) paints him sometimes as somebody who just wants to do hard climbs. Other times he seems like a pretty cool guy who seeks out some of those things that make climbing great, like adventure and variety.
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DexterRutecki
Jul 27, 2009, 11:31 PM
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pretentious, adj. - making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction; "a pretentious country house"; "a pretentious fraud ...
"One cannot look at work projects with anything but boredom having flirted with death on high."
I'd say there are PLENTY of weekend warrior climbers who have done their share of "flirting with death on high" and yet still manage to enjoy their day jobs. Very melodramatic sounding though.
"As I have grown, though, I feel I have grown onto a distinctly different branch than the vast majority of climbers as well as normal human beings. [ WOW!, ed. ] As I go to almost any crag in the United States I see this proliferation of morally deteriorated climbers. They don't care about the adventure or the exploration, they simply want to climb that hard move, to tick that hard climb, adventure a byproduct that must be eliminated through the use of technology. In order to focus simply on the difficulty, climbs have been bolted into submission."
So basically the author is saying that people who don't care about the same thing as him are "morally deteriorated". Apparently there's something inherently wrong with wanting to do "hard moves."
Or, as I see it, it's a long winded turd of an article that instead of being titled "Brotherhood of the rope" could maybe be called, "I don't like sport climbing and feel superior because of it." Congratulations on re-kindling the never ending, stupid and pointless debate, and not even doing a good job of it.
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DexterRutecki
Jul 27, 2009, 11:37 PM
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jmeizis wrote: No, it's little to do with sport climbers or anything in particular as it has to do with the feeling of being in a community that's kind of headed downhill. The feeling could be more acute because I'm surrounded by gumbies all the time who want convenience anchors and bolted cracks (which I've been finding a lot of recently).
If you really feel as if the "climbing community" is headed downhill, you didn't really get that across in your rant, or your reasons why you feel this way. Also, I think most climbers, even those who prefer sport climbing, would be in agreement that easily protected cracks should not be bolted. (Although I'd imagine having a couple wouldn't hurt for people to learn technique, but the same result could probably be achieved by top roping.) Again, that blog post hardly says what you just did.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2009, 11:39 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jeremiah has just posted his most recent thoughts on his frustration with today's climbing scene and the beauty of adventure: The Brotherhood of the Rope is short, but it doesn't hold anything back. Readers who manage to endure the insufferably melodramatic opening quote will be rewarded with the most pretentious and judgmental climbing writing they have ever seen. Jay OK, so you don't agree. That's fine. In fact, it's OK to not even like the guy if that's your thing. But seriously, other than trashing it, you haven't said anything. I'm pretty sure the only reason he's trashing you is because of your initial post. Other than saying it is pretentious, explain why. A few others have tried to engage on a more serious level. Can you?
Already have.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2179795#2179795
Jay
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jt512
Jul 27, 2009, 11:44 PM
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jmeizis wrote: No, it's little to do with sport climbers or anything in particular as it has to do with the feeling of being in a community that's kind of headed downhill.
And do you think when you claim that the majority of climbers are "morally deteriorated" that you're part of the problem or part of the solution?
Hypocrite.
Jay
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Bag11s
Jul 27, 2009, 11:44 PM
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After having climbed thousands of routes and putting together a substantial climbing library during twenty-one years of wild fun I read your essay and think 'wow what happened to this guy?' You've got to re-assess or you'll be missing so much! It's all good my man- mountaineering, ice, trad big walls, extreme sport, bouldering. There is the coolest adventure awaiting you every where- you just have to open up and let the good vibe in. Since you seem stuck on sport being the dark side, try giving in to those dark thoughts, and git yourself on some sport confection that's way hard for you- something with multiple entertainments- and open your mind- if it's radically more exotic with cooler climbing situations than any thing else you've ever seen, you too may come to appreciate the amazing adventure of it- and not just for you but for the person who had the warped vision to see the possibility of the thing in the first place. Sport climbing is one branch of this really cool world of climbing and it's practitioners are not weak morally bankrupt cry-babies. Regarding Sharma- watch the video Kings Lines, and then consider that that film focuses on just one guy- there's so many climbers out there with that type of fantastic open attitude and energy to try new things. You think there's a loss of vision in this generation?
I'm sure you've climbed sport, maybe the routes you got on just didn't grab your entire intellectual and physical interest, maybe you didn't succumb to these dark pleasures deep enough.
Or maybe you don't want to wrap your mind around the rather particular aesthetic of this branch of climbing.
But, anyway the world is so so big, and it's impossible for you to ever run out of the type of adventure climbing that you like. There are hundreds of mountain ranges with millions of crags on the planet. There are remotenesses beyond remotenesses. Whatever your poison, man, it's all good. No need to denigrate others pleasures. It's all good.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 11:48 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote: pretentious, adj. - making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction; "a pretentious country house"; "a pretentious fraud ... "One cannot look at work projects with anything but boredom having flirted with death on high." I'd say there are PLENTY of weekend warrior climbers who have done their share of "flirting with death on high" and yet still manage to enjoy their day jobs. Very melodramatic sounding though. "As I have grown, though, I feel I have grown onto a distinctly different branch than the vast majority of climbers as well as normal human beings. [ WOW!, ed. ] As I go to almost any crag in the United States I see this proliferation of morally deteriorated climbers. They don't care about the adventure or the exploration, they simply want to climb that hard move, to tick that hard climb, adventure a byproduct that must be eliminated through the use of technology. In order to focus simply on the difficulty, climbs have been bolted into submission." So basically the author is saying that people who don't care about the same thing as him are "morally deteriorated". Apparently there's something inherently wrong with wanting to do "hard moves." Or, as I see it, it's a long winded turd of an article that instead of being titled "Brotherhood of the rope" could maybe be called, "I don't like sport climbing and feel superior because of it." Congratulations on re-kindling the never ending, stupid and pointless debate, and not even doing a good job of it.
To be clear, he actually does his fair share of sport climbing. In fact, I met him at Rumney and we've done our fair share of clipping bolts.
I think you're confusing two things: his sport climbing comment made to Jay and his comment on making hard moves. The first comment was simply a retaliation against someone who wouldn't give him the time of day even if they agreed. It was an insult directed specifically at Jay because, well, Jay deserved it. He simply hasn't had anything productive to say.
The second comment, I suspect, is less of an attack on sport climbers, per se, and more of an attack on those who don't see the adventure in climbing and would bolt whatever they want to in order to climb the hard moves. In other words, he's attacking the people who don't care about the adventure. Sport climbers can certainly be adventurous. It's those who bolt cracks that are pissing him off. There's a pretty obvious difference.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 11:53 PM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jeremiah has just posted his most recent thoughts on his frustration with today's climbing scene and the beauty of adventure: The Brotherhood of the Rope is short, but it doesn't hold anything back. Readers who manage to endure the insufferably melodramatic opening quote will be rewarded with the most pretentious and judgmental climbing writing they have ever seen. Jay OK, so you don't agree. That's fine. In fact, it's OK to not even like the guy if that's your thing. But seriously, other than trashing it, you haven't said anything. I'm pretty sure the only reason he's trashing you is because of your initial post. Other than saying it is pretentious, explain why. A few others have tried to engage on a more serious level. Can you? Already have. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2179795#2179795 Jay
meh, I guess I was hoping for more from you. That wasn't much more than a creative way of saying "I think he's pompous and arrogant." It certainly didn't add to the conversation.
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 12:00 AM
Post #48 of 810
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I think you're confusing two things: his sport climbing comment made to Jay and his comment on making hard moves. The first comment was simply a retaliation against someone who wouldn't give him the time of day even if they agreed. It was an insult directed specifically at Jay because, well, Jay deserved it.
I deserved it? Bullshit. Your buddy posts an inane, judgemental, self-righteous, derisive post on the internet, where anybody can criticize it, and I criticized it. I did not insult him personally. I criticized his writing. Harshly? Yes. Dismissively? Definitely. Why? Because to be summarily dismissed is exactly what it deserved. And, so, in spite of the fact that he posted the thing, and commenting on it was fair game, he insulted me personally.
In reply to: He simply hasn't had anything productive to say.
Productive? In what sense? First of all, I pointed out (twice) exactly what was worst in your friend's article. Secondly, there was nothing "productive" about his article in the first place. Why, then, would you presume to think that anybody owes you or him anything "productive" in return.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 12:01 AM
Post #49 of 810
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jeremiah has just posted his most recent thoughts on his frustration with today's climbing scene and the beauty of adventure: The Brotherhood of the Rope is short, but it doesn't hold anything back. Readers who manage to endure the insufferably melodramatic opening quote will be rewarded with the most pretentious and judgmental climbing writing they have ever seen. Jay OK, so you don't agree. That's fine. In fact, it's OK to not even like the guy if that's your thing. But seriously, other than trashing it, you haven't said anything. I'm pretty sure the only reason he's trashing you is because of your initial post. Other than saying it is pretentious, explain why. A few others have tried to engage on a more serious level. Can you? Already have. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2179795#2179795 Jay meh, I guess I was hoping for more from you. That wasn't much more than a creative way of saying "I think he's pompous and arrogant." It certainly didn't add to the conversation.
Wrong. That single sentence is reason to dismiss the article out of hand.
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byran
Jul 28, 2009, 12:05 AM
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jmeizis wrote: No, it's little to do with sport climbers or anything in particular as it has to do with the feeling of being in a community that's kind of headed downhill. The feeling could be more acute because I'm surrounded by gumbies all the time who want convenience anchors and bolted cracks (which I've been finding a lot of recently). I wouldn't consider Sharma to be one of those people per say. I do think he has a lot of influence on the way other climbers view the community and the way he is portrayed by others (it could be him doing the portraying) paints him sometimes as somebody who just wants to do hard climbs. Other times he seems like a pretty cool guy who seeks out some of those things that make climbing great, like adventure and variety.
It seems like every time I hear someone complain about the climbing community turning into a bunch of gumbies and yuppies, that person lives in Colorado. Just an observation.
Sure there's people who only toprope and sport climb, but isn't that how most climbers start out? Or at least isn't that a safer way to start out? The people who want convenience anchors and such probably aren't the ones who have the knowledge or equipment needed to actually bolt a route. By the time someone picks up a drill they've likely been climbing for a while and know what's the acceptable ethic for the area. Occasionally some lame squeeze job will pop up where you wouldn't expect it, but mostly that kind of stuff doesn't extend beyond the sport crag. But maybe it's a different story in Colorado?
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