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DexterRutecki
Jul 28, 2009, 12:20 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The second comment, I suspect, is less of an attack on sport climbers, per se, and more of an attack on those who don't see the adventure in climbing and would bolt whatever they want to in order to climb the hard moves. In other words, he's attacking the people who don't care about the adventure. Sport climbers can certainly be adventurous. It's those who bolt cracks that are pissing him off. There's a pretty obvious difference. There's pretty much nothing in that article that talks about people bolting cracks. It sounds more to me like one or both of you don't have the guts to stand by your "point", or at least retract it, if there even is one. As for this "adventure" bit, I think the climbers out there seeking FAs will always be a small subset. Climbing is different things to different people, criticizing others for their differing take on the sport will always be narrow minded. What about all the people that drive up to a trail head, use a SuperTopo and know where all the rap spots are, what gear to bring, and check a website to see if there are any loose flakes first? Nowhere near as adventurous as climbers back in the glory days. It is what it is though, and I'm pretty sure it's been debated elsewhere. Lastly, supposedly the "community" is headed downhill, yet I see a lot in the news lately about young climbers really pushing hard trad. Is it all ground up? No. But I'm pretty sure the people pushing the envelope there don't really care what some "purists" think. It's much easier to sit back and be critical than to be out there pushing things.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 28, 2009, 12:25 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I think you're confusing two things: his sport climbing comment made to Jay and his comment on making hard moves. The first comment was simply a retaliation against someone who wouldn't give him the time of day even if they agreed. It was an insult directed specifically at Jay because, well, Jay deserved it. I deserved it? Bullshit. Your buddy posts an inane, judgemental, self-righteous, derisive post on the internet, where anybody can criticize it, and I criticized it. I did not insult him personally. I criticized his writing. Harshly? Yes. Dismissively? Definitely. Why? Because to be summarily dismissed is exactly what it deserved. And, so, in spite of the fact that he posted the thing, and commenting on it was fair game, he insulted me personally. Nope, still not cutting it. Sorry, dude, but there are a ton of decent criticism in this thread, and your criticisms do not even come close. You're just coming off as someone who has to spout in an angry way without admitting to the possibility that maybe there's potential for conversation / debate here. That attitude in itself is self-righteous (cause you can't be wrong, can you ).
In reply to: In reply to: He simply hasn't had anything productive to say. Productive? In what sense? First of all, I pointed out (twice) exactly what was worst in your friend's article. Secondly, there was nothing "productive" about his article in the first place. Why, then, would you presume to think that anybody owes you or him anything "productive" in return. Jay If I were Jay I could have written: "I feel as if this post is not productive. It takes a seemingly outdated topic and turns it into a rant against a small population of climbers who should never be compared with the community as a whole. It almost seems incomplete, as if there was more that he wanted to say but didn't get it out. I'm curious to know why he thinks climbing is becoming morally deteriorated. I myself have seen only growth in a lifetime of climbing. What is driving the author to such opinions? It doesn't appear as if he's seeing the whole picture." But that's not what you said, is it? Several other folks said similar things. They tried to engage him. You may say that you made two points, but really dude, you said nothing despite how clever, articulate, or precise you think you were. Sometimes, like me, you say good things, and sometimes, like me, you don't. This hasn't been one of your best threads (well, depending on whether you're shooting for entertainment value, then OK, you scored).
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Gmburns2000
Jul 28, 2009, 12:27 AM
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DexterRutecki wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The second comment, I suspect, is less of an attack on sport climbers, per se, and more of an attack on those who don't see the adventure in climbing and would bolt whatever they want to in order to climb the hard moves. In other words, he's attacking the people who don't care about the adventure. Sport climbers can certainly be adventurous. It's those who bolt cracks that are pissing him off. There's a pretty obvious difference. There's pretty much nothing in that article that talks about people bolting cracks. It sounds more to me like one or both of you don't have the guts to stand by your "point", or at least retract it, if there even is one. I meant that in a "read between the lines" kind of way.
In reply to: As for this "adventure" bit, I think the climbers out there seeking FAs will always be a small subset. Climbing is different things to different people, criticizing others for their differing take on the sport will always be narrow minded. What about all the people that drive up to a trail head, use a SuperTopo and know where all the rap spots are, what gear to bring, and check a website to see if there are any loose flakes first? Nowhere near as adventurous as climbers back in the glory days. It is what it is though, and I'm pretty sure it's been debated elsewhere. Lastly, supposedly the "community" is headed downhill, yet I see a lot in the news lately about young climbers really pushing hard trad. Is it all ground up? No. But I'm pretty sure the people pushing the envelope there don't really care what some "purists" think. It's much easier to sit back and be critical than to be out there pushing things. I agree. Thanks for a good post.
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jmeizis
Jul 28, 2009, 12:33 AM
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It's kind of funny that you describe MN because that's actually where I learned to climb. You're right though, I don't think that my experience is necessarily more important than that of others. Then again the way I gain my experience also comes at little to no cost to those around me. If it did then I would say that I need to take a much more wordly view of how my experience effects others, which I think is pretty much what Chouinard was talking about. Think about what you are doing. I'm not trying to say that a certain style (trad, bouldering, sport) is better than another. I enjoy some more than others and others have the opposite experience. I think there is a proliferation of people who care little about how their ethics effects others. If somebody rap bolts Half Dome then it will greatly effect the experience of others. If you went back to say Taylor's Falls, or the North Shore and the cracks were bolted, there were a bunch of bolted anchors at the top of everything (next to the walk off mind you), with a bunch of people top-roping through the rings, flailing on the same damn move for the 100th time, you might find yourself more in agreement with me. Maybe it's just being in CO and not having climbed anthing significant in a while that's making me pissy. I am young, but not that young. I've been out of school for a while. Not sure where you got that. Maybe it's that your fun might diminish my fun and then we need to look at what values in climbing are more desirable than others in regards to the way they change the sport and how people practice it. It's also an issue of resources. The more damage and crowding at crags leads to more regulation and closure. So I disagree that it's just about having fun on the rock, it is mostly about that but there is more to it in my opinion. Either way, this was just an introduction. I'll be making another post with examples later. Sorry that wasn't clear.
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 12:46 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I think you're confusing two things: his sport climbing comment made to Jay and his comment on making hard moves. The first comment was simply a retaliation against someone who wouldn't give him the time of day even if they agreed. It was an insult directed specifically at Jay because, well, Jay deserved it. I deserved it? Bullshit. Your buddy posts an inane, judgemental, self-righteous, derisive post on the internet, where anybody can criticize it, and I criticized it. I did not insult him personally. I criticized his writing. Harshly? Yes. Dismissively? Definitely. Why? Because to be summarily dismissed is exactly what it deserved. And, so, in spite of the fact that he posted the thing, and commenting on it was fair game, he insulted me personally. Nope, still not cutting it. Sorry, dude, but there are a ton of decent criticism in this thread, and your criticisms do not even come close. My comments are dismissive. If other people think that your friend's essay is worth taking seriously enough to put more effort into criticizing that's their prerogative, or their problem, depending on how you look at it. Jay
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macherry
Jul 28, 2009, 1:02 AM
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jmeizis wrote: It's kind of funny that you describe MN because that's actually where I learned to climb. You're right though, I don't think that my experience is necessarily more important than that of others. Then again the way I gain my experience also comes at little to no cost to those around me. If it did then I would say that I need to take a much more wordly view of how my experience effects others, which I think is pretty much what Chouinard was talking about. Think about what you are doing. I'm not trying to say that a certain style (trad, bouldering, sport) is better than another. I enjoy some more than others and others have the opposite experience. I think there is a proliferation of people who care little about how their ethics effects others. If somebody rap bolts Half Dome then it will greatly effect the experience of others. If you went back to say Taylor's Falls, or the North Shore and the cracks were bolted, there were a bunch of bolted anchors at the top of everything (next to the walk off mind you), with a bunch of people top-roping through the rings, flailing on the same damn move for the 100th time, you might find yourself more in agreement with me. Maybe it's just being in CO and not having climbed anthing significant in a while that's making me pissy. I am young, but not that young. I've been out of school for a while. Not sure where you got that. Maybe it's that your fun might diminish my fun and then we need to look at what values in climbing are more desirable than others in regards to the way they change the sport and how people practice it. It's also an issue of resources. The more damage and crowding at crags leads to more regulation and closure. So I disagree that it's just about having fun on the rock, it is mostly about that but there is more to it in my opinion. Either way, this was just an introduction. I'll be making another post with examples later. Sorry that wasn't clear. so, who gets to have their fun.........you or the gumby? just asking
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 1:07 AM
Post #57 of 810
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macherry wrote: jmeizis wrote: It's kind of funny that you describe MN because that's actually where I learned to climb. You're right though, I don't think that my experience is necessarily more important than that of others. Then again the way I gain my experience also comes at little to no cost to those around me. If it did then I would say that I need to take a much more wordly view of how my experience effects others, which I think is pretty much what Chouinard was talking about. Think about what you are doing. I'm not trying to say that a certain style (trad, bouldering, sport) is better than another. I enjoy some more than others and others have the opposite experience. I think there is a proliferation of people who care little about how their ethics effects others. If somebody rap bolts Half Dome then it will greatly effect the experience of others. If you went back to say Taylor's Falls, or the North Shore and the cracks were bolted, there were a bunch of bolted anchors at the top of everything (next to the walk off mind you), with a bunch of people top-roping through the rings, flailing on the same damn move for the 100th time, you might find yourself more in agreement with me. Maybe it's just being in CO and not having climbed anthing significant in a while that's making me pissy. I am young, but not that young. I've been out of school for a while. Not sure where you got that. Maybe it's that your fun might diminish my fun and then we need to look at what values in climbing are more desirable than others in regards to the way they change the sport and how people practice it. It's also an issue of resources. The more damage and crowding at crags leads to more regulation and closure. So I disagree that it's just about having fun on the rock, it is mostly about that but there is more to it in my opinion. Either way, this was just an introduction. I'll be making another post with examples later. Sorry that wasn't clear. so, who gets to have their fun.........you or the gumby? just asking You say him or the gumby as if they are mutually exclusive. Jay
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jmeizis
Jul 28, 2009, 1:15 AM
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Ok, so I was being a little melodramatic, but I think there are a lot of people who have a harder time concentrating on work than they would if they didn't climb. I climb for a living and I still have trouble concentrating (being that it's almost always the same climbs). There's an awful lot of people who post here from work to prove me otherwise. I don't think I said anywhere in there that if you didn't agree with me then you were morally deteriorated. There are probably people who disagree with me who aren't morally deteriorated, probably very few, but I can't speak for those who won't speak for themselves. Nowhere did I say that sport climbing was bad. I climb plenty of sport, almost every day in fact. It's not sport climbing that bothers me, or even bolts necessarily. The how, why, and where, of it can bother me though. I guess the use of the word they with "morally deteriorated" didn't send a clue as to me discussing the climbing community. Sorry, I figured that was clear. I didn't get to talking about bolted crack. It'll be in a later post. I was just stirring the pot a little bit. You'd be surprised what people think. That's great that people are pushing their limits physically. It's fun to do, but what about pushing the style of the ascent? Most of the time it's people redpointing the same thing, or even onsighting that popular line. Which is cool and really impressive but then the stuff about some guy on a wall in the Baffin Islands for two months by himself gets kind of glazed over because it's only 5.11 A2 VI. Personally I think his story would be a lot more interesting. Most of us know what it's like to push our physical limits. I think (maybe wrongly) that very few know what it's like to push their mental limits. I think just because it's been debated before doesn't mean it needs to die quietly. I tell ten people a day to stop toproping through the rap rings on the local sport climbs. I'm not going to stop because they'll do it anyways. I push my personal limits as much as I can, which is unfortunately pretty hard with work being busy. I don't climb for the approval of others and my limits, mental or physical wouldn't receive much applause anyways. Criticizing style and ethics doesn't require one to push their limits anyway. Just requires an opinion. Glad to see you and some others have them.
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jmeizis
Jul 28, 2009, 1:17 AM
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Me, gumbies can learn to not be gumbies . Jay on the other hand can't seem to add much. Thanks for trying though
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ski.ninja
Jul 28, 2009, 1:24 AM
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Man, the kids these days with the hair and the clothes...
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 1:34 AM
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jmeizis wrote: I push my personal limits as much as I can... According to your undoubtedly hopelessly out-of-date profile, your trad lead level trails your trad toprope level by 5 letter grades, and your sport lead level trails your sport toprope level by 4 letter grades. In what sense, then, do you push your personal limits as much as you can? On toprope? Gee, that's impressive. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 28, 2009, 1:35 AM)
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jmeizis
Jul 28, 2009, 2:39 AM
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Nah, I just try to onsight everything. I figure if I fall a farther cumulative distance than I've climbed than I'm not really getting much climbing done.
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phillygoat
Jul 28, 2009, 3:07 AM
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jmeizis wrote: I didn't get to talking about bolted crack. It'll be in a later post. I was just stirring the pot a little bit. You'd be surprised what people think. Let me just be the first to say how unbelievably stupid it is to NOT bolt a section of crack on a rap-bolted sport route that has 8 or 9 other bolts on it.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 28, 2009, 3:30 AM
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jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: I push my personal limits as much as I can... According to your undoubtedly hopelessly out-of-date profile, your trad lead level trails your trad toprope level by 5 letter grades, and your sport lead level trails your sport toprope level by 4 letter grades. In what sense, then, do you push your personal limits as much as you can? On toprope? Gee, that's impressive. Jay my stepfather was a fairly high-ranking navy officer before he retired. if it was one thing i learned from him it was that just because you're good at something it doesn't make you impressive. and there were a lot of people who thought he was pretty damn impressive. i've met a lot of high-achieving assholes in my life, and a lot of impressive people who never made it past the front desk job. in my opinion, which may mean nothing to you (and that's certainly OK with me), the smart people are the ones who get that you don't have to be awesome in order to live good, healthy, prosperous, and incredible lives. the above comment you made is completely unintelligent, and i really think you're just a child. sorry dude. maybe you're a better man in person, but i don't see that here. at the very least, despite catching a TON of criticism in this thread, Jeremiah has stood up and attempted to explain himself in a civil manner. in fact, he's even admitted to making mistakes in his presentation. you, well, are sad.
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dingus
Jul 28, 2009, 3:35 AM
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chadnsc wrote: Excuse me; his online personality, aka how he has portrayed himself on this site and on his blog. I am pretty sure I have a rather good idea what his online personality is. Where as I wouldn't recognize him even if I stumbled over his carcass at the base of a humanless cliff. Net zero, nawmean? Who the fuck is jeremiah anyway??? DMT
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 3:36 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: I push my personal limits as much as I can... According to your undoubtedly hopelessly out-of-date profile, your trad lead level trails your trad toprope level by 5 letter grades, and your sport lead level trails your sport toprope level by 4 letter grades. In what sense, then, do you push your personal limits as much as you can? On toprope? Gee, that's impressive. Jay my stepfather was a fairly high-ranking navy officer before he retired. if it was one thing i learned from him it was that just because you're good at something it doesn't make you impressive. and there were a lot of people who thought he was pretty damn impressive. i've met a lot of high-achieving assholes in my life, and a lot of impressive people who never made it past the front desk job. in my opinion, which may mean nothing to you (and that's certainly OK with me), the smart people are the ones who get that you don't have to be awesome in order to live good, healthy, prosperous, and incredible lives. the above comment you made is completely unintelligent, and i really think you're just a child. sorry dude. maybe you're a better man in person, but i don't see that here. at the very least, despite catching a TON of criticism in this thread, Jeremiah has stood up and attempted to explain himself in a civil manner. in fact, he's even admitted to making mistakes in his presentation. you, well, are sad. Your friend is a self-righteous phony. He literally declares himself, in writing, to be morally superior to the majority of the rock climbing population. In addition, he's a hypocrite. He derides the gym-climbing population, but makes his living working for a climbing gym. Furthermore, he has the nerve to call himself a climbing guide, which is a slap in the face to real, qualified guides, who free solo routes in their tennis shoes that Jeremiah couldn't redpoint on toprope. It ain't me who is "sad." Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 28, 2009, 3:42 AM)
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dingus
Jul 28, 2009, 3:37 AM
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jmeizis wrote: I don't think you care what anyone thinks about you because you're a self absorbed whiner. OH!!!1111 YOU'RE jeremiah! Hehe. I was reading that He-Men-Ez. Remember, when you lock up the wilderness, you're OUT too. You don't get to be the keeper. You don't get to shed your tribe. DMT
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dingus
Jul 28, 2009, 3:39 AM
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jmeizis wrote: as it has to do with the feeling of being in a community that's kind of headed downhill. I hear the Boltiban are looking for a few (self-righteous) men.... Got towel? DMT
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dingus
Jul 28, 2009, 3:41 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: To be clear, he actually does his fair share of sport climbing. In fact, I met him at Rumney and we've done our fair share of clipping bolts. That's wonderful. Do you carry his pack for him as well? DMT
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kriso9tails
Jul 28, 2009, 3:56 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jeremiah has just posted his most recent thoughts on his frustration with today's climbing scene and the beauty of adventure: The Brotherhood of the Rope is short, but it doesn't hold anything back. Readers who manage to endure the insufferably melodramatic opening quote will be rewarded with the most pretentious and judgmental climbing writing they have ever seen. Jay Well, he's certainly not in it to make everyone happy. He's not making anyone unhappy either, except to the extent that they are unhappy that they will never get back the five minutes of their lives they spent reading such a ridiculous essay. Jay I cut it down to two and a half minutes once I realized it was the same tired clichés I got sick of hearing back in the 90s. I'm sure I'd have gotten sick of it in an earlier decade if I was older.
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stabla
Jul 28, 2009, 3:56 AM
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jmeizis wrote: It's kind of funny that you describe MN because that's actually where I learned to climb. You're right though, I don't think that my experience is necessarily more important than that of others. Then again the way I gain my experience also comes at little to no cost to those around me. If it did then I would say that I need to take a much more wordly view of how my experience effects others, which I think is pretty much what Chouinard was talking about. Think about what you are doing. I'm not trying to say that a certain style (trad, bouldering, sport) is better than another. I enjoy some more than others and others have the opposite experience. I think there is a proliferation of people who care little about how their ethics effects others. If somebody rap bolts Half Dome then it will greatly effect the experience of others. If you went back to say Taylor's Falls, or the North Shore and the cracks were bolted, there were a bunch of bolted anchors at the top of everything (next to the walk off mind you), with a bunch of people top-roping through the rings, flailing on the same damn move for the 100th time, you might find yourself more in agreement with me. Maybe it's just being in CO and not having climbed anthing significant in a while that's making me pissy. I am young, but not that young. I've been out of school for a while. Not sure where you got that. Maybe it's that your fun might diminish my fun and then we need to look at what values in climbing are more desirable than others in regards to the way they change the sport and how people practice it. It's also an issue of resources. The more damage and crowding at crags leads to more regulation and closure. So I disagree that it's just about having fun on the rock, it is mostly about that but there is more to it in my opinion. Either way, this was just an introduction. I'll be making another post with examples later. Sorry that wasn't clear. Your pictures in your profile made you appear to be young as I assumed they were recent. I don't think my idea of fun (climbing with a LNT ethic and respecting the old schoolers FA's) would collide with yours. I think where we differ is in our ideas of the next generation. I am only 24 years old and have been climbing about 8 years. I have noticed there is an overwhelming amount of young and eager climbers beginning to pop up at many crags. I feel like the best thing to do is spread the positive vibe (as cliche' as this might sound) when you are around other young'uns. Talk to them about bolts, ask them questions about local history, and possibly ask them to rope up with you. The only way we can preserve our resources ( i think you were referring to clean trad lines) is take this next generation under our wing. Show them how to have fun out there before n' after: drink cold beers, eat hot food, and chase warm women! This is our culture! The solution is to be proactive. This is a great thread and I hope the progressive posts keep coming! Peace Blake
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jmeizis
Jul 28, 2009, 4:02 AM
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It's not hypocritical to bite the hand that feeds you. I don't like the gym that much, even though I work there. I would much rather use the gym as a way to advertise and get people outside. You've never even met me or seen me at work, so having no idea what I do it's a pretty big leap for you to say what I am or am not. Climbing hard is not a requirement of a guide. Neither is climbing in tennis shoes. Your definition of "qualified" is by no means the hiring standard for every guide service in the United States so please rethink what a rock climbing guide actually does for most of their job.
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marc801
Jul 28, 2009, 4:28 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: I cut it down to two and a half minutes once I realized it was the same tired clichés I got sick of hearing back in the 90s. I'm sure I'd have gotten sick of it in an earlier decade if I was older. Yep. Same self-righteous bullshit and drivel as in the 80's and 70's. Add in a surprisingly poor grasp and understanding of climbing history as well. I suspect that the author hasn't been climbing all that long and lacks the necessary climbing maturity to understand why he's getting such grief in this thread.
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 4:33 AM
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jmeizis wrote: It's not hypocritical to bite the hand that feeds you. I don't like the gym that much, even though I work there. Man, are you a work of art. You might fool yourself, but you're not fooling anybody else, least of all, me. Jay
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jt512
Jul 28, 2009, 4:35 AM
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marc801 wrote: kriso9tails wrote: I cut it down to two and a half minutes once I realized it was the same tired clichés I got sick of hearing back in the 90s. I'm sure I'd have gotten sick of it in an earlier decade if I was older. Yep. Same self-righteous bullshit and drivel as in the 80's and 70's. Add in a surprisingly poor grasp and understanding of climbing history as well. I suspect that the author hasn't been climbing all that long and lacks the necessary climbing maturity to understand why he's getting such grief in this thread. Hell, he's so delusional that he doesn't even realize that he's getting grief in this thread from anyone but me. Ditto for his buddy, GuMbyBurns. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 28, 2009, 4:36 AM)
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