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climbordiecow
Jul 30, 2009, 3:31 PM
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I am thinking about adding 5 bolts to the relentless direct. I would also re-bolt the anchors. I know this has been led on gear and the two fixed pitons (one of which is gone and the other is shite). Honestly, this rock is too choss to trust gear and this line is too cool to not climb. Speak now or hold your peace. Please- only thoughtful replies. ye or ne, I am curious to hear peoples thoughts on this.
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climboard
Jul 30, 2009, 4:01 PM
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Bolting cracks, this always makes for a lively thread.
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vegastradguy
Jul 30, 2009, 4:05 PM
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generally speaking- if its been led on gear, then it should stay as a gear only climb.
of course, if the crag is a generally accepted sport crag where every other route is bolted and this one is kind of a one off....then i'd say local ethics prevail.
in either case, polling the local community is really the way to go- what folks think on rc.com really doesnt apply, since ethics vary across the country from crag to crag.
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chilli
Jul 30, 2009, 4:05 PM
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i'm surprised nobody in your area has anything to say one way or the other so far.
having absolutely no familiarity with the area or the rock quality, my opinion carries no real weight...
that being said, if it's been led on gear before, i'm sure it can be done again, especially if it's a crack as the thread title suggests. honestly, i'm big on sticking to the FA's precident. if they did it sans-bolts, then i would kindly request that you do the same and maintain the rock in its natural form as much as possible. in a slightly different case, a friend of mine wants to bolt a 40-50ft line around here that i plan to investigate and offer up my gear (if the proposed route takes it) for the falls so he can climb it without bolting it (putting my money where my mouth is, quite literally). i hope some similar compromise can be reached in your case.
on the other hand, like i said, i don't know your area or the choss, so my opinion really carries no bearing on the matter, but being one who's pretty into natural/removable pro, i do respectfully ask that you reconsider the possibiilties.
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kennoyce
Jul 30, 2009, 4:06 PM
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Before even thinking about it you must find out who made the FA and get their permission.
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climbordiecow
Jul 30, 2009, 4:35 PM
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FYI-
This area is known for frequent rockfall because of the meager density/hardness of the rock.
The FA was done with 2 fixed pitons that are now gone or rendered rusty and useless.
I have aid'd this route and you are looking at 20+ ft runout with poor to no pro, possible groundfall.
Although many of the pioneers of Barnes Bluff lead on gear, 98% of the routes are now bolted (many of them crack lines) because of the low density rock. I commend the boldness of FA'ers, but no one should die climbing a 60 crack climb in MN.
Lets keep this to locals. I am aware of the ethics involved, but if you have not climbed here it would be hard to know.
I commend everyone for their comments.
I trad climb 5.12 btw if that makes a diff.
(This post was edited by climbordiecow on Jul 30, 2009, 4:37 PM)
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climbingWI
Jul 30, 2009, 6:21 PM
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Being from the area and climbing often in Red Wing I agree with ClimborDieCow that the rock is soft. The fact that they used pitons to climb the route in the first place, with few places for good solid pro and a potential for ground falls; I see no harm in bolting it now. Like he said 98% of the crag is already bolted. I say ye.
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nkane
Jul 30, 2009, 6:33 PM
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If 98% of the crag is bolted, why not leave one bold lead for those who wish to test their mettle?
If there are plenty of other sport routes at the crag, I see little point in taking away the remaining runout climb. Leave it the way it is and maintain the variety at your local area. Not every climb need be made "safe."
(This post was edited by nkane on Jul 30, 2009, 6:34 PM)
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kennoyce
Jul 30, 2009, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: The FA was done with 2 fixed pitons that are now gone or rendered rusty and useless.
There you go, that's your answer, replace the 2 fixed pins so that you are leaving it in the style of the FA, you're also still leaving a decently bold route for anyone who enjoys that type of thing, and you're not just bringing the rock down to your level.
In reply to: I trad climb 5.12 btw if that makes a diff.
No difference except that I have lost all respect for you since you're just spewing numbers to make youreself feel good.
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sgreer
Jul 30, 2009, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I trad climb 5.12 btw if that makes a diff. No difference except that I have lost all respect for you since you're just spewing numbers to make youreself feel good.
Classic
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potreroed
Jul 30, 2009, 7:32 PM
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This should be a decision of whoever made the FA. If they are not available I say go ahead and bolt it.
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IsayAutumn
Jul 30, 2009, 7:35 PM
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climbordiecow wrote: I trad climb 5.12 btw if that makes a diff.
Oh, you climb 5.12? Well then, go ahead and bolt it.
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chilli
Jul 30, 2009, 7:49 PM
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you've already heard my personal opinion regarding bolts so i won't beleaguer the thread further by repeating it.
it just occurred to me that there's really very little need for this thread to exist in the first place (no offense), b/c when it really comes down to it, the issue is a local matter. it's really between you, whoever did the FA, and your local climber's coalition and/or local climber access gurus. around here we have the CCC. surely you could talk directly with the FA'ist & your CCC-equivalent-coalition to find the real answer instead of a forum poll, which is going to be skewed and packed with people like me railing against the idea with no notion of the local ethics or rock.
please take your time and get their input (esp. FA) before going ahead.
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climboard
Jul 30, 2009, 7:49 PM
Post #14 of 42
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If you are a 5.12 trad leader, why would you want to bolt a 5.12 trad line?
As others have said, either get a hold of the FA, or replace the pins and sack up.
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rtwilli4
Jul 30, 2009, 7:57 PM
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climbordiecow wrote: FYI- This area is known for frequent rockfall because of the meager density/hardness of the rock.
climbordiecow wrote: The FA was done with 2 fixed pitons that are now gone or rendered rusty and useless.
Were they already fixed on the FA? Who put them in? Could you get pro in the scar or the crack where the pin was?
climbordiecow wrote: I have aid'd this route and you are looking at 20+ ft runout with poor to no pro, possible groundfall.
climbordiecow wrote: Although many of the pioneers of Barnes Bluff lead on gear, 98% of the routes are now bolted (many of them crack lines) because of the low density rock. I commend the boldness of FA'ers, but no one should die climbing a 60 crack climb in MN.
Ok I'll give you this one. Sounds like you just need to talk to the person who did the FA and see what he has to say.
climbordiecow wrote: Lets keep this to locals. I am aware of the ethics involved, but if you have not climbed here it would be hard to know.
climbordiecow wrote: I commend everyone for their comments. I trad climb 5.12 btw if that makes a diff.
It doesn't make a diff. other than that tells us all that you probably got on here just to get a chance to say that.
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climbordiecow
Jul 30, 2009, 8:16 PM
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what a bunch of sprayers! my god.....
first off- the point concerning the 5.12 trad is simply to point out that this climb is within my ability to lead on gear.. not a pat on my own back. if you took it that way then YOU probably have the chip on your shoulder. I would not bolt this to make this climb any easier...simply safer.
second- I have asked locals.. this is simply another method of communication that allows anyone I missed to voice their opinion. Why diss any form of communication?
third- I am no stranger to fear, but the point I am trying to make is that there is a diff between fear and throwing all caution aside. If thats how you want to climb then just go free solo.
fourth- Climb elsewhere? I would love to climb else where ...wtf does that have to do with this thread? I am discussing climbing here.
that being said.. Im bolting this mother.
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el_layclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 8:16 PM
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If the rock is choss, why bother bolting it? If you want it to be safe, top rope it. If you want to take some sporty falls, TR it with a loop of rope hanging down to your feet.
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climbordiecow
Jul 30, 2009, 8:17 PM
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cant top rope here the top has an erosion problem. good idea tho.
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climbordiecow
Jul 30, 2009, 8:21 PM
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I appreciate all input that was intelligent and thoughtful.
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codhands
Jul 30, 2009, 8:33 PM
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Why don't you save your money and effort. They will most likely just get chopped.
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rtwilli4
Jul 30, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #21 of 42
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codhands wrote: Why don't you save your money and effort. They will most likely just get chopped.
The route is in Minnesota! I doubt anyone cares enough to chop them.
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zeke_sf
Jul 30, 2009, 8:58 PM
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climbordiecow wrote: I appreciate all input that was intelligent and thoughtful.
Hmm... I usually like the input that is stupid and hastily doled out. Mostly because it's easier to make fun of.
To your credit, it sounds like you're doing your homework on this line. I guess it comes down to the battle between keeping a climb as a seldom-repeated project fit only for frothy-lipped, hard-climbing suicidal alcoholics, and the choice of fitting it out to be an oft-repeated crag classic whose holds are now polished into slippery oblivion by pussified number chasers. Either way: Good luck!
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gregory_huey
Jul 30, 2009, 10:06 PM
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First, my thought is that the preference of the FA should prevail, period. If you ask the FA, and they don't care, then why should anyone else object?
If the FA doesn't care, then I'd say sure, why not:
A bolted crack would be a good route to train on for those breaking into the grade.
It would be nice for those who have yet to purchase a full rack.
Of course, be certain that a bolt placement doesn't interfere with/compromise a gear placement.
If the rock is chossy, bolting might reduce the risk of injury - but better make sure the bolts are *bomber* (one can inspect & reset gear, but bolts just have to be good).
I suppose some people might object to the bolts because they might, for reasons unknown, feel compelled to use them while leading - needed or not. Personally, no one has ever held a gun to my head and demanded I clip a bolt that I thought I didn't need. If someone else climbs the route and uses a bolt I didn't need, why the heck should I care? It doesn't in any way reduce my experience.
Later,
Greg Huey
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joeforte
Jul 31, 2009, 2:23 AM
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climbordiecow wrote: what a bunch of sprayers! my god..... first off- the point concerning the 5.12 trad is simply to point out that this climb is within my ability to lead on gear.. not a pat on my own back. if you took it that way then YOU probably have the chip on your shoulder. I would not bolt this to make this climb any easier...simply safer. second- I have asked locals.. this is simply another method of communication that allows anyone I missed to voice their opinion. Why diss any form of communication? third- I am no stranger to fear, but the point I am trying to make is that there is a diff between fear and throwing all caution aside. If thats how you want to climb then just go free solo. fourth- Climb elsewhere? I would love to climb else where ...wtf does that have to do with this thread? I am discussing climbing here. that being said.. Im bolting this mother.
You still haven't mentioned what the FAist's opinion is, which makes me assume you still have not contacted him/her. Before you retrobolt anything, make sure you contact the FAist, or it will get chopped. 
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