|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Aug 6, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #301 of 357
(4005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
gmggg wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson A couple problems with that list: Jesus had kids Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult Kant was insane And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions" Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn.
Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
|
|
|
|
|
gmggg
Aug 6, 2009, 8:17 PM
Post #302 of 357
(3999 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2009
Posts: 2099
|
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: gmggg wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson A couple problems with that list: Jesus had kids Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult Kant was insane And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions" Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn. Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
Good on ya Bruce.
No Pooftas!
|
|
|
|
|
marc801
Aug 6, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #303 of 357
(3987 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2806
|
robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss. to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.
[Edit to fix quotes]
(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 6, 2009, 8:56 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Aug 6, 2009, 8:59 PM
Post #304 of 357
(3978 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
He's just another deluded human; same as the rest of us.... We all have our blind spots; this is one of his.
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Aug 6, 2009, 9:00 PM
Post #305 of 357
(3976 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
gmggg wrote: Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult
That's sort of beside the point.
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Aug 6, 2009, 9:03 PM
Post #306 of 357
(3969 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson
Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Aug 6, 2009, 9:15 PM
Post #307 of 357
(3944 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
gmggg wrote: Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: gmggg wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson A couple problems with that list: Jesus had kids Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult Kant was insane And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions" Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn. Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable. Good on ya Bruce. No Pooftas!
What's new Bruce gonna teach?
|
|
|
|
|
nilcarborundum
Aug 6, 2009, 9:22 PM
Post #308 of 357
(3936 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2007
Posts: 3667
|
zeke_sf wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?
Good idea. I'll get it started.
1) zeke_sf
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Aug 6, 2009, 9:27 PM
Post #309 of 357
(3935 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
nilcarborundum wrote: zeke_sf wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty? Good idea. I'll get it started. 1) zeke_sf
Hahaha... So, has Mrs. Nilcarborwhozerface decided you two are gonna pop out some spuds yet?
Oh yes, take me off that list. Ever since the accident at the peanut shelling plant, I don't technically qualify.
|
|
|
|
|
nilcarborundum
Aug 6, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #310 of 357
(3922 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2007
Posts: 3667
|
zeke_sf wrote: nilcarborundum wrote: zeke_sf wrote: kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty? Good idea. I'll get it started. 1) zeke_sf Hahaha... So, has Mrs. Nilcarborwhozerface decided you two are gonna pop out some spuds yet? Oh yes, take me off that list. Ever since the accident at the peanut shelling plant, I don't technically qualify.
Yes she has. Luckily, she has two more years of skoolin', and then she'll probably want me to make an honest woman of her, and I think I can stretch the wedding planning out a year. I think a solid regimen of illicit drugs should render me sterile by then.
|
|
|
|
|
subantz
Aug 7, 2009, 3:43 AM
Post #312 of 357
(3883 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2007
Posts: 1247
|
Your hunny. I loves me some JDF. At least you have seen that I like to start big fire. I am Alright with kids. I mean kids that are not out of control. Parents you know who you are. Then you have children that are absolutly kool to be around. Ya know
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 12:27 PM
Post #313 of 357
(3858 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
marc801 wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss. to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. Who the fuck are you to be so incredibly arrogant to impose your self-righteous value judgment bullshit on the rest of us? [Edit to fix quotes]
Oh no, I think my arrogance is quite credible.
there's no rigtheousness to it, really. Consider "Life" itself, as one great, ameobic, non- (or semi-) sentient organism. It has but one imperative, and one motivation, simply to continue its existence, and survive.
viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing.
Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.
Life doesn't care if you climb, or spend your existance in altruistic pursuits, or anything. it only cares that you continue its survival.
Life has its own agenda, and we are only another in the many experiments its tried in its pursuit of continuation and survival. all else, all human-scale endeavours and cares, are a gloss over Life's imperative.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Aug 7, 2009, 12:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 12:48 PM
Post #314 of 357
(3853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
kellie wrote: robbovius wrote: the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them. And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people Mother Teresa George Washington Immanuel Kant Jesus Christ Joan of Arc Florence Nightingale Susan B. Anthony Julia Child Rosa Parks the Dalai Lama Georgia O'Keefe Amelia Earhart Harriet Tubman Emily Dickinson
this is a rather inconsistent list.
first off, Jesus Christ is arguably a mythical being. what's that doing on there? you might as well have included Odin, or Anubis.
this list doens't really refute my argument, even for those who'se lives were given to altruism, which doesn't include the adventurers like Amelia E. she spent her life engaging in ever more daring and risky pursuits, until her tragic and mysterious end. How is that not selfish?
George washington was also an adventurer, spending the greater portion of his adult life in directing combat. his cultural relevance, infact is centered on his military pursuits. his presidency is simply an addendum to that, a satisfying coda.
The Dalai Lama was chosen, as a child adn indoctrinated to his semi-divinty. he got no choice as to whether he'd be childless or not. again this doesn't really refute my argument
I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose.
But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 7, 2009, 12:50 PM
Post #315 of 357
(3852 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
robbovius wrote: viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing.
I view life on the universal scale. I think other things do matter, like the temperature of my coffee, the soft touch of a hot woman and the smell of granite after the first drops of rain.
In reply to: Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.
Prove it. No photo, no summit, btw. Gotta call you out on this one hehe.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 7, 2009, 12:58 PM
Post #316 of 357
(3847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
robbovius wrote: I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose. But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes.
Life doesn'd give a shit about this debate. It said so... life speaks to me.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 1:00 PM
Post #317 of 357
(3846 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
dingus wrote: robbovius wrote: viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing. I view life on the universal scale. I think other things do matter, like the temperature of my coffee, the soft touch of a hot woman and the smell of granite after the first drops of rain. In reply to: Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail. Prove it. No photo, no summit, btw. Gotta call you out on this one hehe. DMT
eerrr. damn. y'know, I had pics of my kids up on a couple photo hosting sites, but since all the hassle last year with that asswipe bristolpipe from NEclimbs.com stalking me - which included linking pics of my friends and offering them up for ridicule - I've since taken all the pictures of my kids down, and I'm really hesitant to put any back up. these days, regarding posting anything openly about people close to me, I admit ot having soem serious trust issues.
sucks, because I'm a proud dad, and like showing them off.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 1:04 PM
Post #318 of 357
(3844 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
dingus wrote: robbovius wrote: I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose. But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes. . It said so... life speaks to me. DMT
I know. its ruthless, totally uncaring as to the individual.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Aug 7, 2009, 1:11 PM
Post #319 of 357
(3839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
In the "Life" cycle that you refer to, it's been shown - over and over again - that left to it's own devices, the effect is over use of resources. Which leads to destruction of the home ship.
I posit that it goes to follow that the TRUE purpose of all life is actually what we humans refer to as death. Personally, I see this phase as the "rest stage" in part of the cycle. Within the rest stage is bliss.
Think not? Are the scenes within dreams more sublime that those of the walking day(if not, perhaps lay off the mind altering substances and lessen youe stress, both of which interfere). It's been shown(through science) that the mind and body heals during sleep phase. Is vacation time not more wonderful than the work between? Do not injured beings recoup through rest?
You see, Robb - your illusion does not extend beyond the realm of "life" and that is the crux that must be overcome in order to see the flaw in your theory.
We all - all - seek to return to the primordial ooze. the state of "non," where we just "are."
But - no problem, if you don't see it that way. Most don't.
|
|
|
|
|
mojomonkey
Aug 7, 2009, 1:21 PM
Post #320 of 357
(3817 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 869
|
robbovius wrote: viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing
Even accepting this proposition, you are being pretty short-sighted if you think "breeding" is then the only success criteria. Take Dean Kamen for instance - if his inventions (medical, mobility, water purification, ...) raise the quality of life for some percentage of the population, that is "helping life to survive". Someone that may have died of dehydration can now live. And yes, maybe breed. Or maybe they make breakthroughs which help others.
Number of kids is a pretty dumb measuring stick for success.
And no, I don't even know if Dean Kamen has kids. The Wikipedia article didn't mention family and I don't really care to investigate. Regardless of his family life I'd say he is helping life survive.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 1:28 PM
Post #321 of 357
(3814 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
happiegrrrl wrote: In the "Life" cycle that you refer to, it's been shown - over and over again - that left to it's own devices, the effect is over use of resources. Which leads to destruction of the home ship.
absolutely, Life is utterly ruthless and driven, uncaring of consequence. that we, humanity, are aware of our ioveruse of resources, simply indicates that we are the first oflife's experiments to show a glimmer of awareness regarding our survival in a universal context.
In reply to: I posit that it goes to follow that the TRUE purpose of all life is actually what we humans refer to as death. Personally, I see this phase as the "rest stage" in part of the cycle. Within the rest stage is bliss. Think not? Are the scenes within dreams more sublime that those of the walking day(if not, perhaps lay off the mind altering substances and lessen youe stress, both of which interfere). It's been shown(through science) that the mind and body heals during sleep phase. Is vacation time not more wonderful than the work between? Do not injured beings recoup through rest?
Happie, this "rest stage" you speak of is integral to and inseparable from Life. studies have also shown that if the individual is deprived of the "rest stage", there are serious health, and thereby survivability, consequences. So, your argument isn't really that far removed from what I'm going on about.
In reply to: You see, Robb - your illusion does not extend beyond the realm of "life" and that is the crux that must be overcome in order to see the flaw in your theory.
I admit to being essentially a physicalist.
"beyond the realm of life..." hmm. the realm of life includes death. My mortality is close to me and walks with me every day - that final oblivion adn non-existence. dreams are your brain running a defrag.
calling what i've written a theory, is overly flattering I think. but ,thanks ;-) its barely a hypothesis. does this constitute a peer review?
In reply to: We all - all - seek to return to the primordial ooze. the state of "non," where we just "are."
In reply to: But - no problem, if you don't see it that way. Most don't.
in this last comment, as related our differng personal ideas on this topic - which is likely the best hijack I've ever commited - we find congruence in our experience.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Aug 7, 2009, 1:39 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 7, 2009, 1:38 PM
Post #322 of 357
(3804 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
mojomonkey wrote: robbovius wrote: viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing Even accepting this proposition, you are being pretty short-sighted if you think "breeding" is then the only success criteria.
no, forget the human scale. view Life - all of it, every species, every entity, as one single collective organism - analogous to all the differentiated cells within your own body, with all their different functions constituting a single collective organism.
what most matters to that collective organism, at its most basic level? what is its essential imperative?
In reply to: Take Dean Kamen for instance - if his inventions (medical, mobility, water purification, ...) raise the quality of life for some percentage of the population, that is "helping life to survive". Someone that may have died of dehydration can now live. And yes, maybe breed. Or maybe they make breakthroughs which help others.
again this only realtes to the human scale and excludes the rest of the collective organism. does it actually matter to that overall organism?
In reply to: Number of kids is a pretty dumb measuring stick for success.
not if you want your own reality show.
In reply to: And no, I don't even know if Dean Kamen has kids. The Wikipedia article didn't mention family and I don't really care to investigate. Regardless of his family life I'd say he is helping life survive.
your life? mine? tube worms? dolphins? wasps? parameceum? what percentage of the collective organism?
|
|
|
|
|
mojomonkey
Aug 7, 2009, 1:50 PM
Post #323 of 357
(3790 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 869
|
You are really reaching. I was giving an example to illustrate the flaw in your statement:
In reply to: you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.
Dean Kamen, regardless of progeny is still successful based on your own criteria. He helped live survive without breeding.
So fine, we can jump species. Take a bee hive. Other than queens, the females are sterile workers. They gather food and maintain the hive. They are essential to sustaining the life of that hive and can't possibly breed. So they are failures.
There is a more global view you are missing. Yes, any form of life needs, as a group, to reproduce to sustain itself. Not every single one of its members needs to breed.
|
|
|
|
|
wonderwoman
Aug 7, 2009, 2:05 PM
Post #324 of 357
(3780 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2002
Posts: 4275
|
I'm a happy full time step-mom and yet I still hear an endless stream of 'When are you going to have one of your own?' from co-workers and relatives. It makes me mad for a few reasons. First, it dismisses the fact that I am already raising a great kid (just because she is not biologically mine, doesn't make this less true. She is my daughter. I am her mother. I am raising her.). Second, it's none of their business why I don't have a baby. And third, I never seem to hear this question asked of my childless male colleagues.
If someone asks me this question twice, I will tell him that the discussion makes me feel uncomfortable and to please never ask me again. Sometimes I want to tell the asker that I can't have babies, just to see the look on the other person's face. Maybe that will make him think twice before asking another person this question.
I think that it's wildly inappropriate to impose reproductive values on other people. It's a personal decision, and if someone does not have a child, then there may be a pretty good reason for it.
But let's bring this conversation back on track. If ever I did have a baby, I would bring it to the crag. But I would only let it throw rocks at climberguy.
|
|
|
|
|
jamincan
Aug 7, 2009, 2:40 PM
Post #325 of 357
(3761 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2007
Posts: 207
|
I'm not sure that reproduction is always in the best interest of your so-called "collective organism." Taken to an extreme reproduction can be harmful - consider cancer for example. Arguably, considering how harmful human beings generally are to the biosphere in general, we might as well be considered a harmful tumor, in which case it would be in this collective organism's best interest not to have humans reproduce.
|
|
|
|
|
|
