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zchandran


Aug 21, 2009, 8:03 AM
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Re: [ckirkwood9] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
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There shouldn't be anything on a route this side of 5.11 that requires great grip.

Have you ever tried doing a traverse across the under-side of a roof or a sustained overhang?

my gym has quite a few very pumpy overhangs and roofs in the 5.9s and 5.10 range that require a fair amount of grip strength and lot of endurance (as well as good technique):

[image]http://www.govertical.com/images/gallery/gym3.jpg[/image]

the pump you get climbing the red or yellow wall in the photo will quickly change your opinion.

And a trip up to the Gunks to get on the sharp-end of any number of sub-5.11 pumpy routes will also have you wishing for JUUUSSSST a LITTLE more endurance as you scramble to shove a tiny stopper into a crack.

On the traverses and overhung routes such as in your picture, I get a lot more bang for my buck from efficient footwork, as opposed to a stronger grip. As a beginner, being able to push correctly from my feet and keep my hips in to the wall by flagging and turning are much more important than maintaining an iron grip on the holds. And if I'm peeling off because I needed a bit more endurance, I go back and look at the route and see what I could do different to put less weight on my hands. There's always something.

At some point, I'll need to work on my grip - I'm not arguing that. But the more I climb, the more I realize how lacking my footwork and balance are, so that's where I put the effort in.

As I've said, I'm a beginner, so I'm just going by my personal experience. I bought one of those spring loaded hand trainers from REI my first month of climbing, it's been sitting in a drawer untouched for the last 8 months or so.


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 8:40 AM
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Re: [csproul] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
Holy shit, are you a dumbass. They were your examples, not mine.

Nooooo.... it is you who are the dumb ass. MY QUESTION was this:

"Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that lat strength will help a swimmer or that quad strength help a runner?"

your EXAMPLE questioned if it would be a good recommendation to suggest weight training to swimmers and runners.

I never suggested "weight training" for swimmers, runners OR climbers for that matter. I simply stated that STRONGER sport specific muscles will help with the sport that employs those muscles.

Go back to grad school and demand your money back... they've failed you.

In reply to:
Good idea, let's take beginners who are already prone to overuse injuries and suggest that they take on additional stresses to the hands and forearms.

That is why i stressed PROPER USE of the training device to build strength in PREPARATION for climbing, when returning from an injury (as suppored by a physical therapist), or as a warm up. By doing so a new climber's hands/forearms would be more apt to handle the stresses placed upon them by climbing.

In reply to:
That would be much better than focusing on building technique that might actually help alleviate some of those stresses.

More proof that you have not followed this discussion. I didn't suggest using a training aid instead of climbing. You seem unable to grasp this concept...

In reply to:
I'm done with arguing.

that's good... because you're bad at it.

In reply to:
You can play fake-coach to all the beginning climbers you want, but can you find me one credible source of (climbing) coaching that suggests that a beginning climber would benefit from using a forearm trainer (and we're not talking about "warming up" here either)? I doubt it.

I provided you 2.

Though I suppose you COULD question the credibility of
La Sportiva-sponsored athlete: Daniel Woods
and Eric Horst: the author of a book that
Lynn Hill calls "Well researched and right on."


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 8:46 AM
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Re: [csproul] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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In reply to:
but can you find me one credible source of (climbing) coaching that suggests that a beginning climber would benefit from using a forearm trainer (and we're not talking about "warming up" here either)? I doubt it.

how's this for credible:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandi Proffitt. Brandi's a professional climber, international routesetter, Certified Personal Trainer and Nationally Accredited US Climbing Coach endorses a forearm trainer and says this:

Isometric tension of all the forearm exercises increases grip strength, reduces stress, tones and sculpts targeted muscles, reduces the onset of arm pump when used as a stretching aid prior to activity and reduces discomfort caused by repetitive motion disorders.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a quote from a professional that emphasizes the importance of developing strong forearms for rock climbing.

”First, strong fingers are every climber's dream. And since the fingers don't have muscles, it's the sinew connections in the forearms (and the attending muscles) that must be strengthened.”
- How to Rock Climb-A Falcon Guide; 3rd ed.- John Long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

from livestrong.com: Dr. Amy Collins

The muscles in the forearm connect from the elbow to the wrist, controlling motion in your elbow, wrist, hand and fingers. One or more muscles may be involved in a particular activity. Strengthening the affected muscles is an important part of tendinitis rehab. A change in your workout can allow you to strengthen around the inflamed muscles without aggravating them. Change your routine regularly to balance the stresses placed upon the muscles.

Would you like more?

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 21, 2009, 8:56 AM)


csproul


Aug 21, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: [ckirkwood9] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I never suggested "weight training" for swimmers, runners OR climbers for that matter. I simply stated that STRONGER sport specific muscles will help with the sport that employs those muscles.
I guess I assumed you meant activity other than the specific sport since you were using these examples to support the use of a forearm trainer. Silly me. If not talking about the specific sport (swimming, running, climbing) to gain "stronger sport-specific muscles", then I can only assume you mean using some other means, i.e. weight lifting in this example. I'm all ears if you had something else in mind that does not include the sport itself.
In reply to:
Go back to grad school and demand your money back... they've failed you
Well, I'm still in it, so maybe there's still hope.
In reply to:
That is why i stressed PROPER USE of the training device to build strength in PREPARATION for climbing, when returning from an injury (as suppored by a physical therapist), or as a warm up. By doing so a new climber's hands/forearms would be more apt to handle the stresses placed upon them by climbing.
No you weren't, you were arguing that a forearm trainer would be beneficial to a new climber to help them prepare for climbing. Not for PT, not as a warm-up routine.
In reply to:
I provided you 2.

Though I suppose you COULD question the credibility of
La Sportiva-sponsored athlete: Daniel Woods
and Eric Horst: the author of a book that
Lynn Hill calls "Well researched and right on."
Again, these may be fine examples for a training climber, but not appropriate for someone who has just started out climbing. And I still don't remember seeing anything in those sources specifically about a forearm trainer, only regarding other non sport-specific training. I could be wrong there since I have not gone back to re-read Horst's book.
In reply to:
how's this for credible:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandi Proffitt. Brandi's a professional climber, international routesetter, Certified Personal Trainer and Nationally Accredited US Climbing Coach endorses a forearm trainer and says this:

Isometric tension of all the forearm exercises increases grip strength, reduces stress, tones and sculpts targeted muscles, reduces the onset of arm pump when used as a stretching aid prior to activity and reduces discomfort caused by repetitive motion disorders
If you're going to quote a source, at least get the source right. This quote is from a website for a training product, the Gripstick (http://www.articlesbase.com/...benefits-350275.html or here http://www.gripstik.com/...aining_benefits.html) not a quote from Brandi Proffitt. Here is what she had to say, "'I'd like to say that not only has the use of the Grip Stik improved my overall forearm fitness, it has significantly countered the development of elbow injuries which I was beginning to experience as a result of forearm muscle imbalance. Using the Grip Stik on a regular basis has helped to balance my strength and improve my competitive performance as a professional rock climber like no other exercise or therapy I've tried. Since I started using GripStik as part of my regular rock climbing training regimen, I have been free of elbow problems, have experienced a reduced onset of fore arm pump while climbing, and have ranked in the top ten in the female US national standings in my sport two years in a row. Thank you so much for your support and for a wonderful product. I recommend it to anyone who wants to improve forearm strength, flexibility, endurance, and overall balance.'".

Again, maybe appropriate for a trained climber to counteract "forearm muscle imbalance", but not something a beginning climber should have trouble with yet. So I could believe that such training may help prevent injury and allow you to continue training, but this is still not an issue for a new climber.

In reply to:
Here is a quote from a professional that emphasizes the importance of developing strong forearms for rock climbing.

”First, strong fingers are every climber's dream. And since the fingers don't have muscles, it's the sinew connections in the forearms (and the attending muscles) that must be strengthened.”
- How to Rock Climb-A Falcon Guide; 3rd ed.- John Long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

from livestrong.com: Dr. Amy Collins

The muscles in the forearm connect from the elbow to the wrist, controlling motion in your elbow, wrist, hand and fingers. One or more muscles may be involved in a particular activity. Strengthening the affected muscles is an important part of tendinitis rehab. A change in your workout can allow you to strengthen around the inflamed muscles without aggravating them. Change your routine regularly to balance the stresses placed upon the muscles.

Would you like more?
As for these ridiculous examples, one is talking about rehab and about strengthening opposing muscles without aggravating inflamed muscles (still no mention of a forearm trainer). Not a problem a beginning climber should have. The other is stating the obvious. Of course we'd all like stronger fingers, although I doubt that it is anywhere near the limiting factor for most climbers. The questions are 1)is a forearm trainer the best way to achieve this (debatable) and 2)if it is, is it appropriate for for a beginning climber (not addressed at all by John Long's quote). Off to NRG now, enjoy your weekend.


(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 21, 2009, 9:50 AM)


amyas


Aug 21, 2009, 9:52 AM
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Re: [ckirkwood9] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.


shockabuku


Aug 21, 2009, 10:30 AM
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Re: [amyas] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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amyas wrote:
chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.

He does, doesn't he? Unfortunately that doesn't mean he's right (or wrong).


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Aug 21, 2009, 10:30 AM)


bobbj22


Aug 21, 2009, 10:44 AM
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Re: [amyas] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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i'm getting that sex change now.

At least you have an excuse to buy new gender specific climbing stuff.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 21, 2009, 11:06 AM
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Re: [amyas] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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amyas wrote:
chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.

It doesn't take reason or intelligence to google something and provide a quote. Unfortunately, the quotes provide do not address the topic, which is whether a grip trainer will help a brand new climber.

It was mentioned that there are no muscles in the fingers, only tendons. This is correct. Without additional strength exercises, the forearm muscles will develop at a faster rate then the finger tendons. What happens when you accerlerate the development of the muscles pulling on the tendons without allowing the tendons ample time to catch up?

Sounds like a recipe for injury to me.

Josh


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Climbing advise [In reply to]
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In reply to:
It doesn't take reason or intelligence to google something and provide a quote. Unfortunately, the quotes provide do not address the topic, which is whether a grip trainer will help a brand new climber.

But it does take a margin of intelligence to create a logical argument. Providing quotes found on the internet is only a means to support my position. Assuming the sources are credible.

I have done that, then my sources were called not credible.

Once I provided credibility, they were then dismissed or ignored. BUT that's how an illogical person argues: Sans logic.

If we can agree that using a grip strength and/or forearm trainer will increase strength in one's forearms, then the quotes certainly DO address the topic.

If you DON'T think that the forearm trainer i mentioned will increase strength in one's forearms, well then the topic HASN'T been addressed. if you think that using the device i SPECIFICALLY mentioned WON'T increase the strength of climbing-specific muscles, then I again say.. you're being silly.

With the BD device, you're gripping with resistance. That will build up the muscles that one uses to grip while climbing. (fingers/thumbs/forearm flexors) and to further this... using the other device i mentioned - therabar - can be used to strengthen the forearm extensors.

Will having a stronger grip and more grip endurance make a climber better? No... not by itself.

Where it will help them is by allowing them to have LONGER climbing sessions. Which means they can spend MORE TIME climbing... which means MORE TIME to learn the finesse of climbing and develop the skills (and overall muscle/tendon strength) necessary to become a better climber.

This whole discussion was born of that thought. Will using a BD ring strengthen climbing-specific muscles... and will stronger climbing-specific muscles help a new climber.

shockabuku said: Maybe you could highlight the part where it says a forearm trainer will help you become a better climber?

re-read my above and you'll have your answer.

If you can recall your days as a newbie... you'll remember that you could only climb a few routes before you were too pumped out to go on, as a more seasoned climber that is no longer an issue.

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 21, 2009, 12:37 PM)

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