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shoo


Sep 21, 2009, 6:36 AM
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Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics?  (North_America: United_States: Utah: Moab: Indian_Creek)
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I'm looking to make a trip to the creek in mid October. Being from the Northeast, my crack technique is probably seriously deficient. Before anyone asks, I've already climbed most of the better known / easier vertical cracks in the area. There aren't many.

My partner and I are looking to get a 1-2 day guide / crack instructor to develop some basic technique before spending the next 2-4 days doing stuff on our own.

Can anyone recommend a good instructor / guide service?

Bonus question: is there anywhere that rents some cams to supplement our racks? Not counting on it, but would be cool. I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.


Partner camhead


Sep 21, 2009, 6:49 AM
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Re: [shoo] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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From what I've heard, the most reputable guide service is Moab Desert Adventures. They do crack climbing clinics around Moab and at the Creek. I do not think that they rent gear, and am unsure if they would even let you lead.

Also, it is a bit more of a crapshoot, but you can have fairly good luck just meeting partners at the campground, and it is not uncommon to find someone willing to talk you through some basic crack technique in exchange for gear sharing, beer, etc. If you are looking to get the most for your time, though, definitely go with the guide service.


shockabuku


Sep 21, 2009, 7:04 AM
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Re: [shoo] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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Scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://www.moabdesertadventures.com/splittercamps.html


petsfed


Sep 21, 2009, 8:29 AM
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Re: [shoo] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

I doubt anyone in the states would rent cams, simply because of the liability issues. You need to know the history of the gear you're climbing on, and you can't know that if you're renting. If any of the previous renters soaked the slings in battery acid and then didn't say anything, you'd be screwed.


shoo


Sep 21, 2009, 8:39 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

I have enough gear of my own and can borrow enough that the link cams would just fill in the gaps. There is no way I would go out and purchase 8 link cams. That's ridiculous. I was thinking maybe 2 or 3. The fewer the better. I just can't see myself using them that much around the northeast.

petsfed wrote:
I doubt anyone in the states would rent cams, simply because of the liability issues. You need to know the history of the gear you're climbing on, and you can't know that if you're renting. If any of the previous renters soaked the slings in battery acid and then didn't say anything, you'd be screwed.

Of course. I highly doubt that I would be able to rent. In any case, the plan would have been to inspect the hard goods, then use my own slings doubled through the cables or else clip trad draws directly to the cables.


My big shortage is really in the BD #3 range (I can only track down 3 at the moment without purchasing). Unfortunately, the link cams don't really fit that gap very well.

Can I get away with 3 #3's if I'm trying to hit up most of the moderate classics?


shockabuku


Sep 21, 2009, 8:45 AM
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I think if I was making a cross country trip to IC I'd want more than 3 #3 Camalots. My guess would be at least 5-6.


rock_ranger


Sep 21, 2009, 8:48 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

I doubt anyone in the states would rent cams, simply because of the liability issues. You need to know the history of the gear you're climbing on, and you can't know that if you're renting. If any of the previous renters soaked the slings in battery acid and then didn't say anything, you'd be screwed.

Huh, I only used Link Cams last time I went to the Creek. Never had any problems with the weight, but maybe I'm just strong enough and have enough $$ to do it Unsure




Partner cracklover


Sep 21, 2009, 9:58 AM
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Re: [shoo] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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shoo wrote:
Can I get away with 3 #3's if I'm trying to hit up most of the moderate classics?

I think so. You'd be better off with five, but three will get you up a lot of the mega-classics.

As for guides....

Splitter Camps is a good way to cover a lot of ground and get topropes set on a lot of stuff you would have to hangdog yourself, or might not have the gear to lead. But, honestly, after having attended it myself, I'm not sure you'll learn much technique.

So if you're not afraid to fall, and you have some rudimentary technique (you must if you've done all the NE cracks) and you have enough gear, I'd save your $$. That clinic is not cheap.

Or just hire a guide for a half a day (if you can) to go over your techniques, and then work, work, work them at the creek.

Oh, and if you're still in Boston, go play on the cracks in the BRG and Metro. You can work on everything from thin fingers to offwidth. You'll get a lot more out of your trip to the Creek if you put some time into training before you go.

GO


shoo


Sep 21, 2009, 1:32 PM
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Just remembered that I have an original #4 solid stem Friend on my shelf that never gets used. Always wanted an excuse to use that thing. It's coming with me. 2-3 more BD #3 sized cams and I should be good to go.


caughtinside


Sep 21, 2009, 1:59 PM
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petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

Oh come on. are you saying the weight difference between 4 camalots and 4 links is WAAAY to much for single pitch cragging a 15 minute hike from the road? That's just silly.


Partner camhead


Sep 21, 2009, 2:31 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

Oh come on. are you saying the weight difference between 4 camalots and 4 links is WAAAY to much for single pitch cragging a 15 minute hike from the road? That's just silly.

whoa, you only take four pieces on Indian Creek routes? Did you just stick to "warmup 5.9" at every crag?

I've never used linkcams, and am not sure about the weight differences between them and camalots, for example. It may start being a factor on 160 foot routes where you are taking two dozen pieces.


caughtinside


Sep 21, 2009, 3:04 PM
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Re: [camhead] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

Oh come on. are you saying the weight difference between 4 camalots and 4 links is WAAAY to much for single pitch cragging a 15 minute hike from the road? That's just silly.

whoa, you only take four pieces on Indian Creek routes? Did you just stick to "warmup 5.9" at every crag?

I've never used linkcams, and am not sure about the weight differences between them and camalots, for example. It may start being a factor on 160 foot routes where you are taking two dozen pieces.

no, no, that's not what I'm saying. The fact is, very few climbers will have ONLY link cams at indian creek. Most people will already have a rack of crap plus the odd link cam or two. Or even 4. If you have a normal double rack of cams and then you get 4 link cams, you're ready to go on the majority of the hand sized routes at indian creek. Really not that much extra weight.

As far as the 'warmup 5.9' at the crag, I'll admit that just about every route I did I could fit my hand in so it's just 5.9. The grades there are an embarrassment. Top Sirloin, 5.9. Pente 5.9, Excuse Station 5.9, Dos Hermanos, 5.10-.


AntinJ


Sep 21, 2009, 4:20 PM
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Shoo ~

I've been dying to get out there as well!

If you guys don't make it next month, keep me posted and maybe we can get a big(ger) group to head out there together to share expenses and gear.

let me know,

Jason


petsfed


Sep 21, 2009, 6:26 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

Oh come on. are you saying the weight difference between 4 camalots and 4 links is WAAAY to much for single pitch cragging a 15 minute hike from the road? That's just silly.

whoa, you only take four pieces on Indian Creek routes? Did you just stick to "warmup 5.9" at every crag?

I've never used linkcams, and am not sure about the weight differences between them and camalots, for example. It may start being a factor on 160 foot routes where you are taking two dozen pieces.

no, no, that's not what I'm saying. The fact is, very few climbers will have ONLY link cams at indian creek. Most people will already have a rack of crap plus the odd link cam or two. Or even 4. If you have a normal double rack of cams and then you get 4 link cams, you're ready to go on the majority of the hand sized routes at indian creek. Really not that much extra weight.

As far as the 'warmup 5.9' at the crag, I'll admit that just about every route I did I could fit my hand in so it's just 5.9. The grades there are an embarrassment. Top Sirloin, 5.9. Pente 5.9, Excuse Station 5.9, Dos Hermanos, 5.10-.

Even on the routes I know I'm not gonna fall on, I'd be a fool to take only 6 pieces on a 120 foot route on sandstone if I didn't have to. You'd be pretty screwed on Rock Lobster, and its got another 40 feet of ring locks after the hand section.

If you need a lot of units, link cams are a poor solution. If you only have a vague idea of what size piece you need, but you only need one, then link cams are great.

A #2 camalot weighs 158g. An equivalently sized link cam weighs 207g. Now, if you only need 5 #2 camalots, like on Blue Sun, its not a major issue. But if you need 12 of them on Bunny Slope, you'd be carrying the weight of 16 #2 camalots if you carried all link cams. Now, obviously, this is an outlier, but if you hiked all the way up to Bunny Slope, what the hell else are you gonna climb? There's Belly Full of Bad Berries and ... uh... well, I guess Critic's Choice has some hands on it.

The 6 piece routes are NOT representative of the canyon as a whole. Do not misunderstand me, I LOVE link cams. But buying a huge rack of them for the Creek is effort wasted on the approach.

They weigh 25% more, they cost 25% more, and don't give you 25% more pieces, which is really what you need in the Creek.


caughtinside


Sep 21, 2009, 6:49 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
petsfed wrote:
shoo wrote:
I might have to go out and grab some link cams or something. They seem pretty much made for the Creek.

I disagree. They weigh WAAAY too much to really be practical in the creek. If you have to carry doubles in everything because you don't know which single piece you'll need a spare of, then Link cams are good. If, however, you need doubles or quads or what have you in a very specific piece, link cams cost too much and weigh too much for what they are.

Oh come on. are you saying the weight difference between 4 camalots and 4 links is WAAAY to much for single pitch cragging a 15 minute hike from the road? That's just silly.

whoa, you only take four pieces on Indian Creek routes? Did you just stick to "warmup 5.9" at every crag?

I've never used linkcams, and am not sure about the weight differences between them and camalots, for example. It may start being a factor on 160 foot routes where you are taking two dozen pieces.

no, no, that's not what I'm saying. The fact is, very few climbers will have ONLY link cams at indian creek. Most people will already have a rack of crap plus the odd link cam or two. Or even 4. If you have a normal double rack of cams and then you get 4 link cams, you're ready to go on the majority of the hand sized routes at indian creek. Really not that much extra weight.

As far as the 'warmup 5.9' at the crag, I'll admit that just about every route I did I could fit my hand in so it's just 5.9. The grades there are an embarrassment. Top Sirloin, 5.9. Pente 5.9, Excuse Station 5.9, Dos Hermanos, 5.10-.

Even on the routes I know I'm not gonna fall on, I'd be a fool to take only 6 pieces on a 120 foot route on sandstone if I didn't have to. You'd be pretty screwed on Rock Lobster, and its got another 40 feet of ring locks after the hand section.

If you need a lot of units, link cams are a poor solution. If you only have a vague idea of what size piece you need, but you only need one, then link cams are great.

A #2 camalot weighs 158g. An equivalently sized link cam weighs 207g. Now, if you only need 5 #2 camalots, like on Blue Sun, its not a major issue. But if you need 12 of them on Bunny Slope, you'd be carrying the weight of 16 #2 camalots if you carried all link cams. Now, obviously, this is an outlier, but if you hiked all the way up to Bunny Slope, what the hell else are you gonna climb? There's Belly Full of Bad Berries and ... uh... well, I guess Critic's Choice has some hands on it.

The 6 piece routes are NOT representative of the canyon as a whole. Do not misunderstand me, I LOVE link cams. But buying a huge rack of them for the Creek is effort wasted on the approach.

They weigh 25% more, they cost 25% more, and don't give you 25% more pieces, which is really what you need in the Creek.

They give you pieces that will work in different sized cracks. Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds. If you can get that out of a single link cam instead of having to buy a new red and a new gold well than that is terrific. Well, blues are nice too but there's no blue link.

After climbing there for just a few days I figured out that most of this 'oh, you going to indian creek? I hope you have like 10 of every size' is really just internet hype. The cracks that are truly uniform and require 10 or so of a size are very few and far between. I think I might have used 7 golds or equivalent on generic and that's it. maybe 7 reds on excuse station.

If something really takes 12 golds at indian creek, it's probably slammer 5.8- hands, and I'm a little more comfortable running it out at that size. Or borrow gear from the next party or whatever. But if you already have a triple or quad rack, links are a great way to go.

the weight just ain't that big a deal. People got along for years with those old generation camalots. Just my opinion.


Partner camhead


Sep 21, 2009, 7:03 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.


caughtinside


Sep 21, 2009, 7:37 PM
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Re: [camhead] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.


petsfed


Sep 21, 2009, 7:58 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.

That sucks. I'm slowly developing a long list of all of the soft 11s and relatively easy finger cracks that I can go cruise on a 5 pound rack. I'm seriously sick of being bent double under the rack for a single climb.

I'm not even that good, but I can crank out all of the hand cracks in a day or two. What am I gonna do for the remaining 5 that I'm there?

Or if I don't want to wait in line for one of the hand cracks?

Fingers and fists have made most of my trips a lot more enjoyable. I'd go mad climbing just hands for that long.


(This post was edited by petsfed on Sep 21, 2009, 8:00 PM)


Partner camhead


Sep 21, 2009, 8:07 PM
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petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.

That sucks. I'm slowly developing a long list of all of the soft 11s and relatively easy finger cracks that I can go cruise on a 5 pound rack. I'm seriously sick of being bent double under the rack for a single climb.

I'm not even that good, but I can crank out all of the hand cracks in a day or two. What am I gonna do for the remaining 5 that I'm there?

Or if I don't want to wait in line for one of the hand cracks?

Fingers and fists have made most of my trips a lot more enjoyable. I'd go mad climbing just hands for that long.

I agree. And you can designate certain days to be "fingercrack days," which really reduces the load you have to hump to the cliff pretty significantly.


petsfed


Sep 22, 2009, 7:07 AM
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camhead wrote:
petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.

That sucks. I'm slowly developing a long list of all of the soft 11s and relatively easy finger cracks that I can go cruise on a 5 pound rack. I'm seriously sick of being bent double under the rack for a single climb.

I'm not even that good, but I can crank out all of the hand cracks in a day or two. What am I gonna do for the remaining 5 that I'm there?

Or if I don't want to wait in line for one of the hand cracks?

Fingers and fists have made most of my trips a lot more enjoyable. I'd go mad climbing just hands for that long.

I agree. And you can designate certain days to be "fingercrack days," which really reduces the load you have to hump to the cliff pretty significantly.

I noticed that. The rule we developed is that if your goal for the day was wildly different in size from everyone else's, you carried the rack for it. So you thought long and hard before aiming for the Big Baby.


Partner camhead


Sep 22, 2009, 7:46 AM
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petsfed wrote:
camhead wrote:
petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.

That sucks. I'm slowly developing a long list of all of the soft 11s and relatively easy finger cracks that I can go cruise on a 5 pound rack. I'm seriously sick of being bent double under the rack for a single climb.

I'm not even that good, but I can crank out all of the hand cracks in a day or two. What am I gonna do for the remaining 5 that I'm there?

Or if I don't want to wait in line for one of the hand cracks?

Fingers and fists have made most of my trips a lot more enjoyable. I'd go mad climbing just hands for that long.

I agree. And you can designate certain days to be "fingercrack days," which really reduces the load you have to hump to the cliff pretty significantly.

I noticed that. The rule we developed is that if your goal for the day was wildly different in size from everyone else's, you carried the rack for it. So you thought long and hard before aiming for the Big Baby.

Yeah. That's part of the reason Angry always had a hard time convincing people to make the hump up to BFOBB with him. The Big Baby appraoch is pretty chill by comparison.


caughtinside


Sep 22, 2009, 8:58 AM
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Re: [camhead] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
petsfed wrote:
camhead wrote:
petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Most of what you need in the creek is red and golds.

the rongometer is hitting the red. And I don't mean camalutz.

The sad fact is, is that I'm not good enough for the stuff where I'd need 6 greens or purples.

That sucks. I'm slowly developing a long list of all of the soft 11s and relatively easy finger cracks that I can go cruise on a 5 pound rack. I'm seriously sick of being bent double under the rack for a single climb.

I'm not even that good, but I can crank out all of the hand cracks in a day or two. What am I gonna do for the remaining 5 that I'm there?

Or if I don't want to wait in line for one of the hand cracks?

Fingers and fists have made most of my trips a lot more enjoyable. I'd go mad climbing just hands for that long.

I agree. And you can designate certain days to be "fingercrack days," which really reduces the load you have to hump to the cliff pretty significantly.

I noticed that. The rule we developed is that if your goal for the day was wildly different in size from everyone else's, you carried the rack for it. So you thought long and hard before aiming for the Big Baby.

Yeah. That's part of the reason Angry always had a hard time convincing people to make the hump up to BFOBB with him. The Big Baby appraoch is pretty chill by comparison.

The big baby has a 5 minute approach.


petsfed


Sep 22, 2009, 9:48 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
The big baby has a 5 minute approach.

Yeah, but 20 lbs of gear spread over 10 pieces is a little ridiculous, especially if you want to climb other stuff too.


shoo


Sep 22, 2009, 9:50 AM
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Re: [AntinJ] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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AntinJ wrote:
Shoo ~

I've been dying to get out there as well!

If you guys don't make it next month, keep me posted and maybe we can get a big(ger) group to head out there together to share expenses and gear.

let me know,

Jason

Hells yes. I'll let you know. Who knows, may love it enough that I would go back out in the spring anyway. There's a lot to climb out there. . .


rock_ranger


Sep 22, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Indian Creek guiding / crack clinics? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
The big baby has a 5 minute approach.

Yeah, but 20 lbs of gear spread over 10 pieces is a little ridiculous, especially if you want to climb other stuff too.

I did Big Baby with 7 pieces. But I also bump my cams up until I need the next size. And lets face it, after the roof at the begining the route is a cruise. No need to sow it up IMO.

No need for 16 #6 DB's (20 lbs) either..lol

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