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ABIV


Sep 17, 2009, 1:01 PM
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New Climbing Wiki
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I am creating a Wiki or system of Wikis for climbing spots. There seems to be a severe lack of climbing websites with actual information on them. There are of course numerous good guidebook and maps, but they don't necessarily reflect the wisdom of the climbing community. The bigger problem is while guidebooks are nice and portable they are hard to update.

A wiki will give us a community generated body of knowledge allowing us to do many things; keep up to date info on climbs and areas, maps to the areas, nice color photos that are kept current, use community input to get the history of routs correct and hundreds of other things. I'll have more info and specifics to follow soon but what would be nice is some sort of feedback or even feature requests.

Thank you,
Arthur Beisang
PROJECT Design inc.


brotherbbock


Sep 17, 2009, 1:02 PM
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Sounds like Supertopo to me ;)


Partner neuroshock


Sep 18, 2009, 8:14 AM
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Re: [brotherbbock] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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Mountain Project, too


Crack_Addict_Ty


Sep 18, 2009, 9:17 AM
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Re: [neuroshock] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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Or summitpost.........or even the routes section of RC.com


threebadfish


Sep 22, 2009, 4:22 PM
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Re: [ABIV] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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There are hundreds of sites like you are talking about, and only a handful that are regularly used. What is going to set your site apart from the already gigantic databases already available? Are you going to copy thousands of route entries from these other sites and use as your own?

Or do you think the idea alone is going to allure everyone away from already existing, deep rooted database sites?


ABIV


Sep 22, 2009, 7:56 PM
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Thanks for the feedback guys, this is exactly what I was hoping for. Neuroshock I agree Mountain Project is pretty good and has better navigation than most of the sites (their map based nav is defiantly a step in the right direction).

threebadfish, the problem is the sites with gigantic databases are usually only gigantic in areas of the country that have large populations (read the coasts) or are heavily climbed, which of course is perfect for many people. But there is a dearth of info on the smaller local spots across the country (world?) the chances of someone sitting in their house a thousand miles way from the spot will documenting the spot are slim. The fundamental difference in what I want to do is that I want to make a system (I'm still thinking Wiki) that can be easily set up for individual areas by an individual or group of people who have a connection with that spot. Lastly, I have no desire to copy the databases of existing sites.

So I guess that's a long way of saying that I want to make it easier for people to set up sites on their climbing spots, rather than a centralized site that covers the country (world?). This fosters a better connection with the site, and hopefully a community, as a bonus it could help communication between parks and climbers which is never a bad thing.

Thanks again for the feedback, and feel free to pass on anything else you think of.


Thank you,
Arthur Beisang
PROJECT Design inc.


JAB


Sep 23, 2009, 3:38 AM
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ABIV wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys, this is exactly what I was hoping for. Neuroshock I agree Mountain Project is pretty good and has better navigation than most of the sites (their map based nav is defiantly a step in the right direction).

threebadfish, the problem is the sites with gigantic databases are usually only gigantic in areas of the country that have large populations (read the coasts) or are heavily climbed, which of course is perfect for many people. But there is a dearth of info on the smaller local spots across the country (world?) the chances of someone sitting in their house a thousand miles way from the spot will documenting the spot are slim. The fundamental difference in what I want to do is that I want to make a system (I'm still thinking Wiki) that can be easily set up for individual areas by an individual or group of people who have a connection with that spot. Lastly, I have no desire to copy the databases of existing sites.

So I guess that's a long way of saying that I want to make it easier for people to set up sites on their climbing spots, rather than a centralized site that covers the country (world?). This fosters a better connection with the site, and hopefully a community, as a bonus it could help communication between parks and climbers which is never a bad thing.

Thanks again for the feedback, and feel free to pass on anything else you think of.


Thank you,
Arthur Beisang
PROJECT Design inc.

One thing which has not really been implemented on any site, is a multi-language interface. There is no way you can compete with any of the large climbing websites, so instead I would focus on getting topos and information about foreign places. For the US and UK you can find all information in english, but you have to remember that a huge part of the climbing world is spanish, italian, german, croatian, thai, russian etc etc. Good luck finding info about crags in eastern Europe in english!

So, my suggestion: create a site with a super-easy interface and multi-language support. So the local Russian can add a topo, location and access info (in russian), and then make it so that someone else easily can translate it to english (or the other way around of course).


thomasribiere


Sep 23, 2009, 3:52 AM
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Or camptocamp.org, a major (originally francophone) database for alpine and sport and trad courses, as well as mountain ski, in the Alps and Pyrenees mainly but not only : already 17,000 different itineraries, with some of them advocated as the best alpine topos by hut owners.

The interface exists in Spanish, English, German, Italian and is way underused.
It's a real wiki system, every registered person (free) can create / modify existing datas.

Its one pitch sport climbs interface is yet to be developed, though, but it's a matter of months.


jt512


Sep 23, 2009, 4:14 AM
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Re: [ABIV] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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ABIV wrote:
But there is a dearth of info on the smaller local spots across the country (world?) the chances of someone sitting in their house a thousand miles way from the spot will documenting the spot are slim. The fundamental difference in what I want to do is that I want to make a system (I'm still thinking Wiki) that can be easily set up for individual areas by an individual or group of people who have a connection with that spot.

It's still not clear how that is any different than the system here or at mountainproject.com. At either of these sites anyone can add an area, or add routes to an existing area. It's true that in order to delete an area, or make certain changes, you need administrator approval, whereas with a wiki, you wouldn't; but it is not clear why that would somehow encourage the documentation of small crags.

Jay


gmggg


Sep 23, 2009, 5:04 AM
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Re: [ABIV] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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ABIV wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys, this is exactly what I was hoping for. Neuroshock I agree Mountain Project is pretty good and has better navigation than most of the sites (their map based nav is defiantly a step in the right direction).

threebadfish, the problem is the sites with gigantic databases are usually only gigantic in areas of the country that have large populations (read the coasts) or are heavily climbed, which of course is perfect for many people. But there is a dearth of info on the smaller local spots across the country (world?) the chances of someone sitting in their house a thousand miles way from the spot will documenting the spot are slim. The fundamental difference in what I want to do is that I want to make a system (I'm still thinking Wiki) that can be easily set up for individual areas by an individual or group of people who have a connection with that spot. Lastly, I have no desire to copy the databases of existing sites.

So I guess that's a long way of saying that I want to make it easier for people to set up sites on their climbing spots, rather than a centralized site that covers the country (world?). This fosters a better connection with the site, and hopefully a community, as a bonus it could help communication between parks and climbers which is never a bad thing.

Thanks again for the feedback, and feel free to pass on anything else you think of.


Thank you,
Arthur Beisang
PROJECT Design inc.

You're missing the part that a large portion of the undocumented stuff falls into two categories. Chossy madness or fiercely protected locals only crags.


qwert


Sep 23, 2009, 6:03 AM
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Generally i would say a wiki could be a nice form for such a thing as a nationwide or even worldwide "guidebook", but it would face many porblems.

first being how would you get enough users to actually get a usefull database?
Its a hen and egg problem. If you dont have a big database, you dont get users. If you dont have users, you dont get a big database.

I do not know about all the other sites mentioned, but for example this here site i would consider quite an interesting start if one just wanted to browse for international crags, or add one.

Also a problem would be copyright. How would you make shure that people not simpyl upload scans of guidebooks? you would have to have some kind of moderation or control system.

qwert


shoo


Sep 23, 2009, 7:14 AM
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Re: [jt512] New Climbing Wiki [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ABIV wrote:
But there is a dearth of info on the smaller local spots across the country (world?) the chances of someone sitting in their house a thousand miles way from the spot will documenting the spot are slim. The fundamental difference in what I want to do is that I want to make a system (I'm still thinking Wiki) that can be easily set up for individual areas by an individual or group of people who have a connection with that spot.

It's still not clear how that is any different than the system here or at mountainproject.com. At either of these sites anyone can add an area, or add routes to an existing area. It's true that in order to delete an area, or make certain changes, you need administrator approval, whereas with a wiki, you wouldn't; but it is not clear why that would somehow encourage the documentation of small crags.

Jay

+1

The ultimate problem with these community based databases is that the model relies on relatively large, active populations accepting a standard. These standards already exist.

In order for a critical mass to move to a new standard, you are going to have to present to the community either a truly innovative model or a user experience which is significantly more functional and pleasant than those that already exist, or both.

A regular old wiki just isn't going to cut it.

I'm pretty convinced that the best way to make something like this really work is to embrace the mobile community like has never been done before. That being said, I think it will work best by integrating this with existing databases with active user populations. Otherwise, I doubt it will achieve critical mass.

Ideas include:
Multi platform (iphone, android, winmo, etc.) user interfaces
Easy uploading of GPS and time tagged pictures from mobile device, tied to area / route
Offline access for when there is little service (which is all the time, for most)
GPS tracking and mapping of routes and pathways to routes


JAB


Sep 24, 2009, 12:37 PM
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thomasribiere wrote:
Or camptocamp.org, a major (originally francophone) database for alpine and sport and trad courses, as well as mountain ski, in the Alps and Pyrenees mainly but not only : already 17,000 different itineraries, with some of them advocated as the best alpine topos by hut owners.

The interface exists in Spanish, English, German, Italian and is way underused.
It's a real wiki system, every registered person (free) can create / modify existing datas.

Its one pitch sport climbs interface is yet to be developed, though, but it's a matter of months.

Thanks for the link. Had not heard about that site before. Looks nifty! Wink


threebadfish


Sep 24, 2009, 3:09 PM
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There are also extremely popular localized sites that have a wealth more information than even sites like this one has on routes, like redriverclimbing.com. There is a lot of information on the gorge on this site, but not quite as comprehensive as rrc.

You are either going to have to focus on a local area that doesn't already have a ton of information on it or offer some other sort of revolutionary feature that all these other sites currently don't offer. And to be honest if I think of one of those things, I probably wouldn't share it ;)


ABIV


Sep 24, 2009, 6:39 PM
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You're completely right, I'm currently leaning towards a easily distributable system of sites allowing people to set up their own local sites. And I do have a few trick up sleeve as far as features go.


ABIV


Sep 24, 2009, 6:57 PM
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I agree, much of the work I'm going to be doing will be along the lines of a more efficient and enjoyable interface, and you are correct a regular old wiki is not good enough. Mobile and GPS usage are along some of the lines Im thinking of.

Good point on the offline usage, printable guides are pretty standard but I wonder if a technology like google gears has a place here. Any one bring their laptop to the crags?


Partner neuroshock


Sep 24, 2009, 10:16 PM
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ABIV wrote:
You're completely right, I'm currently leaning towards a easily distributable system of sites allowing people to set up their own local sites. And I do have a few trick up sleeve as far as features go.
Sounds like what Mountain Project used to be, back in the www.climb{your crag}.com days. (climbdevilslake.com, climbboulder.com, e.g.)


FabienenCordoba


Sep 25, 2009, 1:40 AM
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JAB wrote:
my suggestion: create a site with a super-easy interface and multi-language support. So the local Russian can add a topo, location and access info (in russian), and then make it so that someone else easily can translate it to english (or the other way around of course).

That's exaclty what http://www.camptocamp.org offers although no one has volunteered to translate the interface to russian yet... but there is a basque version!!

English speakers can access content in other languages using automatic translations provided by google (a clickable text appears as you pass the mouse over the route description for example).


(This post was edited by FabienenCordoba on Sep 25, 2009, 1:44 AM)


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