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wanderlustmd
Sep 27, 2009, 1:55 AM
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chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story.
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epoch
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Sep 27, 2009, 2:14 AM
Post #27 of 54
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wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is!
I think your death adze will still clear the curve of that shaft, I don't think the new not-so-scary adzes will.
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chossmonkey
Sep 27, 2009, 2:07 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is!
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shoo
Sep 30, 2009, 2:44 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is! They should take the adzes as well.
The hammer would be useful for adding weight to the head. But the adze?!?!
Why would anyone actually want to put an adze on these things? I can't possibly imagine someone bringing this kind of tool anywhere near anything you'd actually need to use an adze for.
Think about trying to chop steps with a curvy tool like that. It's not gonna be pretty.
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chossmonkey
Oct 1, 2009, 12:27 AM
Post #30 of 54
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shoo wrote: chossmonkey wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is! They should take the adzes as well. The hammer would be useful for adding weight to the head. But the adze?!?! Why would anyone actually want to put an adze on these things? I can't possibly imagine someone bringing this kind of tool anywhere near anything you'd actually need to use an adze for. Think about trying to chop steps with a curvy tool like that. It's not gonna be pretty.
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Alpine07
Oct 1, 2009, 1:56 AM
Post #31 of 54
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chossmonkey wrote: shoo wrote: chossmonkey wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is! They should take the adzes as well. The hammer would be useful for adding weight to the head. But the adze?!?! Why would anyone actually want to put an adze on these things? I can't possibly imagine someone bringing this kind of tool anywhere near anything you'd actually need to use an adze for. Think about trying to chop steps with a curvy tool like that. It's not gonna be pretty. You are clearly out of your element.
I second this notion. An adze can be pretty darn useful even in the un-alpine evironment. Though nowadays you see tools like this in the mountains all the time.
(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Oct 1, 2009, 2:02 AM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 1, 2009, 10:34 AM
Post #32 of 54
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Alpine07 wrote: chossmonkey wrote: shoo wrote: chossmonkey wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is! They should take the adzes as well. The hammer would be useful for adding weight to the head. But the adze?!?! Why would anyone actually want to put an adze on these things? I can't possibly imagine someone bringing this kind of tool anywhere near anything you'd actually need to use an adze for. Think about trying to chop steps with a curvy tool like that. It's not gonna be pretty. You are clearly out of your element. I second this notion. An adze can be pretty darn useful even in the un-alpine evironment. Though nowadays you see tools like this in the mountains all the time.
Good day sir!!!
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drytooler
Oct 1, 2009, 11:05 AM
Post #33 of 54
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just to let you guys know
its in the catalog and says januarie 2010
(This post was edited by drytooler on Oct 1, 2009, 11:07 AM)
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granite_grrl
Oct 1, 2009, 11:37 AM
Post #34 of 54
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drytooler wrote: just to let you guys know its in the catalog and says januarie 2010
With the death spike on the handle I wonder what you have to do to adjust the handle size.....
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Alpine07
Oct 1, 2009, 12:37 PM
Post #35 of 54
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chossmonkey wrote: Alpine07 wrote: chossmonkey wrote: shoo wrote: chossmonkey wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: chossmonkey wrote: anykineclimb wrote: it almost looks like it won't accomodate a hammer or (gasp!) adze. anyone know? They should take hammers. Whether or not you will be able to pound with them is a whole other story. A shame. We all know how great the BD death adze is! They should take the adzes as well. The hammer would be useful for adding weight to the head. But the adze?!?! Why would anyone actually want to put an adze on these things? I can't possibly imagine someone bringing this kind of tool anywhere near anything you'd actually need to use an adze for. Think about trying to chop steps with a curvy tool like that. It's not gonna be pretty. You are clearly out of your element. I second this notion. An adze can be pretty darn useful even in the un-alpine evironment. Though nowadays you see tools like this in the mountains all the time. Sorry dude, but It would appear you are as well. Good day sir!!!
Damn, strike one!
Good day to you too sir!
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qwert
Oct 1, 2009, 1:11 PM
Post #36 of 54
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drytooler wrote: just to let you guys know [image]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/505/medium/412088_fusion.jpg[/image] its in the catalog and says januarie 2010
qwert
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Skabbi
Oct 1, 2009, 1:54 PM
Post #37 of 54
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Hi
I actually think that the new Fusion looks a lot more like the Nomic then the old Fusion. New shaft, new handle, new head.
Cheers
Skabbi
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tools.jpg
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the_climber
Oct 1, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #38 of 54
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Skabbi wrote: Hi I actually think that the new Fusion looks a lot more like the Nomic then the old Fusion. New shaft, new handle, new head. Cheers Skabbi
There's 2 reasons for that.
1 - The old Fusion was designed and produced before the nomic's were
and
2 - BD is doing a great job of making copies of other companies ice gear. (Just look at the G14's and Cyborgs)
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 1, 2009, 4:36 PM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 1, 2009, 11:56 PM
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drytooler wrote: just to let you guys know its in the catalog and says januarie 2010
I feel so ripped off. The protos I fondled last winter must have not had the new head. They had the mini hammers.
Looks like I'll be looking for the closeouts on the old ones.
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the_climber
Oct 2, 2009, 3:34 PM
Post #40 of 54
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I'll admit... even for someone who is of the opinion 90% of BD tools swing like an unbalanced carpenter's hammer...
That is a sexy ice tool.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 5, 2009, 3:18 AM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 4, 2009, 11:25 PM
Post #41 of 54
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the_climber wrote: I'll admit... even for someone who is of the opinion 90% of BD tools swing link an unballanced carpenter's hammer... That is a sexy ice tool.
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kachoong
Oct 5, 2009, 12:01 AM
Post #42 of 54
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chossmonkey wrote: the_climber wrote: I'll admit... even for someone who is of the opinion 90% of BD tools swing link an unballanced carpenter's hammer... That is a sexy ice tool. n00b!!!!!!!!11!!!
$200 right now.... but I'm sure they'll go lower.... perhaps...
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the_climber
Oct 5, 2009, 2:12 PM
Post #43 of 54
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chossmonkey wrote: n00b!!!!!!!!11!!!
Hey I know enough to not use tools without hammers unless it's bolted mixed.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 5, 2009, 2:19 PM)
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anykineclimb
Oct 6, 2009, 12:27 AM
Post #44 of 54
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the_climber wrote: Skabbi wrote: Hi I actually think that the new Fusion looks a lot more like the Nomic then the old Fusion. New shaft, new handle, new head. Cheers Skabbi There's 2 reasons for that. 1 - The old Fusion was designed and produced before the nomic's were and 2 - BD is doing a great job of making copies of other companies ice gear. (Just look at the G14's and Cyborgs)
werd
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the_climber
Oct 10, 2009, 4:17 AM
Post #46 of 54
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Mini hammers on ice tools are about as useful as a bikini in Antarctica... sure it's an extra layer, but...
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chossmonkey
Oct 11, 2009, 10:16 PM
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They do.
At least you could probably sorta test fixed pins. And possibly drive specters.
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shoo
Jan 25, 2010, 7:44 PM
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I finally got a pair of these two weeks ago. They've been out for three days thusfar. Here are my initial review.
Full disclosure: I got these tools and a pair of laser picks heavily, heavily discounted from BD. I have use them a total of three days out so far (two pure ice, one day mixed).
Price
Though I didn't get them for retail, I figure I'd throw this in for the general public. At $279 a piece retail, they ain't cheap, but they aren't the most expensive tools out there either. BD Cobras, Petzl Nomics, Petzl Quarks, and DMM Anarchists are all a bit pricier at $334, $299, $285, and $284 respectively. This is a little surprising, since I would definitely have thought BD would have put a big premium on brand new sexiness. Instead, they priced it super-aggressively. Well done BD.
Features
The mini hammer is a pretty interesting feature. It's small and slightly awkward to use. If you're pounding pins a lot, look elsewhere or bring a hammer with you. I haven't pounded any pins with it so far, but I don't really intend to either.
The handle itself is clearly made for super thin gloves. I have pretty medium sized hands and wear reasonably thin gloves most of the time, and I feel that I was pretty much maxing out the space in the handle even after I put both spacers on. I wouldn't even bother with thick mitts. They won't fit. Changing the length of the handle, by the way, was super easy to do at home, but I wouldn't try it in the field. Way too many small parts involved.
The handle is slightly less featured than the nomics, which helps a little with thicker gloves. Extra bonus is the fully rubberized regular handle and upper handle, instead of that sticky tape stuff that's on the nomics.
I happen to like the pick attachment compared with the Petzl standard for one reason: no tools needed for on-the-fly changes, and no small parts. You can easily use another pick, already on your other tool or off, to screw and unscrew the bolt. However, I do have two gripes with this particular tool. Why is there a separate back plate piece that comes unattached from the head? I see no reason for this. It's just one more part to lose. Maybe cost savings in machining? I also found that the bolt sticks out pretty far from the head. That makes it annoying to try to reach inside a thin crack to hook a feature.
In any case, I changed picks back and forth from lasers to fusions several times in the field and was very pleased with how easy it was. I had tools with me, but didn't get them out since it just wasn't necessary. By the way, I have no clue what they do to get tighten the picks from the factory. It took a long wrench, a hammer, and lots of swearing to get the bolt off for the first time at home. After that, it was super easy.
I find the spike to be a bit unnecessary by itself, but I have no doubt it would be awesome paired with an umbilical. It is not coincidental that the new BD spinner leash came out at the same time as the new fusions.
I gotta say, I really don't like the Chernobyl vomit color. I personally prefer tools that are understated. If there is attention to be had, it should be on the climber, not on the tools. That being said, it is appreciated when packing out in the dark. It's damn difficult to find tools that get buried accidentally when packing out with headlamps when they're black.
Balance and swing
As you would expect from a tool specifically designed for mixed, the balance is lower down on the shaft than more ice-specific tools. If you are a tomahawk chopper, look elsewhere. You will not be happy with these.
The swing is comparable to the nomics, but they are really very different. The fusions feel a little heavier overall, and balance feels slightly higher up on the shaft.
These things are all wrist power for sure. Trying to drive them in with just arm chop would be like trying to climb ice with a rubber mallet. At first it feels like you have to force your wrist to flick more (even more so than nomics), but it becomes natural pretty quickly. I would say that it takes slightly more effort to swing these than some other ice-specific tools out there (cobras, reactors, etc.), but with a little practice, the difference is negligible.
Performance on pure ice:
For mildly to highly featured vertical ice, they are just beautiful. I found myself doing a lot more hooking on tiny ice features and swinging a lot less than other tools. While you'll find that you may lose a little energy swinging, you gain it all back by not having to swing as much on well featured ice.
As with all leashless tools, the ability to match hands opens up worlds.
When the angle gets lower, things get a little more interesting. The first time I came out over a bulge, I swung the tools, and watched helplessly as the tips bounced right off swing after swing. I then remembered a little tip I read on the internets (thank you to Dane at cascadeclimbers) to try swinging from the upper pommel. I didn't put much stock in it until I tried it. One swing, perfect stick every time, no problems. It's truly amazing how much these tools change when you swing from higher up.
Swinging from the upper pommel is something that takes some time to get used to. I'll admit that even after 3 days of constant proof that life is much better doing it that way, it still isn't my default reaction. It seems awkward to have all that handle below your hand when you're swinging, but surprisingly, it keeps out of your way somehow, and goddamn does it work well.
I suspect a lot of people who have tried these tools and didn't like them were having trouble sticking the tools coming out over a bulge, which is often the hardest part. My personal opinion is that these problems are negligible with a little creativity in your swings.
I also highly recommend getting a pair of laser picks. They make a significant difference in more brittle ice.
Performance on mixed terrain
As a full disclosure, I'm not a mixed master by any means. Just getting into it. However, these tools made my first few mixed routes truly awesome.
One thing that you will notice is that there is just a little flex in the shaft when torquing hard on the tools, such as in stein pulls. If anything, it makes hard pulls feel more solid as long as you move your weight slowly to prevent bouncing.
These things are just begging for stein pulls. Seriously, they offer super solid levering awesomeness in the most unlikely of places. I watched as my friends tried torquing picks into a thin, widely flaring seam trying desperately to reach for another edge with their other tool. I climbed up fiddled for a second, and turned a needle head sized "feature" into an insanely stable pull. The other tool went over my shoulder. I didn't need it.
I can't talk much about the stability, since I don't have enough mixed experience to really judge. I can say that surprisingly small edges and features felt surprisingly good.
The super aggressive angle makes hooking columns and features a dream.
The bottom line
If you are looking for a leashless tool for mixed and vertical ice, this needs to be on your list of potential tool options. I wouldn't recommend buying without trying, since they are a different beast than other tools out there, including their obvious rival the nomics. If low angle, moderate ice is your thing, there are plenty of better options. If crushing vertical to overhanging rock and ice is your thing, these tools are made for you.
I'll personally be trying a few modifications to my pair in the near future, such as modifying the picks to accept nomic head weights. Dane looks like he's up to some pretty neat mods as well. I'll report back as I get more mileage on them.
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granite_grrl
Jan 26, 2010, 4:20 PM
Post #49 of 54
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A couple of comments and questions:
The death spike on them seem like a stupid idea (lets add one more pointy thing to make your tools blowing justa bit more exciting!), it was my understanding that it was removable. It this correct?
As for adjusting the size of the handles: It doesn't sound any worse than the Nomic or the old Fusions. I pretty much exclusively climb in thin gloves and have my Nomic handles sized small. I can sqeeze my thick gloves into the handles, no way with mittens. You're just going to have to fiddle around and find a size that you can work with.
I would love to get my hands on these and comapre them with the Nomics and the old Fusions. I am happy to hear that you think they do so well drytooling, the old Fusions were some of the best drytooling tools on the market. I don't know what it was about the geometry, but there are stein pulls and other holds I just can't get into with my Nomics but are beauty with the old Fusions. In the end the Nomics = an excellent ice tool that drytools reasonably, old Fusions = an excellent drytool tool which can climb ice reasonably.
Thanks for sharing!
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shoo
Jan 26, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #50 of 54
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granite_grrl wrote: The death spike on them seem like a stupid idea (lets add one more pointy thing to make your tools blowing justa bit more exciting!), it was my understanding that it was removable. It this correct?
Yup, the death spikes come off very easily. I wouldn't recommend doing it in the field since there are small parts involved.
The spike does help out here and there. I think the big help is as an easy umbilical clip in point, but I haven't tried that out yet, so who knows. They help a little when starting a screw, but it takes some fiddling with the tool to you can hammer it the right way, making that particular feature not very useful unless you are at a hands-free ledge. The spike also helps out just a bit topping out on snowy ledges. All in all, I think it's a nice to have on bulgy, easy ice, but not necessary.
granite_grrl wrote: As for adjusting the size of the handles: It doesn't sound any worse than the Nomic or the old Fusions. I pretty much exclusively climb in thin gloves and have my Nomic handles sized small. I can sqeeze my thick gloves into the handles, no way with mittens. You're just going to have to fiddle around and find a size that you can work with.
Putting both spacers in is perfect for my hands. I would just be concerned if I had bigger hands or wanted to wear thicker gloves (which I don't care about).
granite_grrl wrote: I would love to get my hands on these and comapre them with the Nomics and the old Fusions. I am happy to hear that you think they do so well drytooling, the old Fusions were some of the best drytooling tools on the market. I don't know what it was about the geometry, but there are stein pulls and other holds I just can't get into with my Nomics but are beauty with the old Fusions. In the end the Nomics = an excellent ice tool that drytools reasonably, old Fusions = an excellent drytool tool which can climb ice reasonably.
I think, when it comes down to it, the old fusions might still be just a hair nicer for pure dry tooling, if for no other reason than their balance, but the new ones climb ice vastly better.
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